02-05-2013, 04:11 PM
#1
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I have a brush that was my first re-knot about 6 months ago, I re-knotted a 22mm. Parker handle with a 22mm. TGN silvertip. As mentioned it was my first re-knot and I did not think too much about loft when I installed the new knot- I just popped it in the hole with out any modification- the hole was just deep enough to cover the plug (about 5mm). Now that I have used this brush for awhile and know what I want in terms of loft, I was contemplating removing the knot, taking the hole in the handle down a little bit and re-installing the knot. My question is- will steaming the knot out ruin it or will it be ok to reuse?

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 02-05-2013, 04:36 PM
#2
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I've been wondering about that too. I have a couple of brush handles I'd like to try reknotting AND I have some brushes with nice knots where in not too crazy about the handles.

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 02-05-2013, 04:39 PM
#3
  • beartrap
  • Resident Цирюльник
  • Southern California
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I am not sure but don't think it will ruin it. Don't they "sterilize" it this way?

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 02-05-2013, 04:43 PM
#4
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(02-05-2013, 04:39 PM)beartrap Wrote: I am not sure but don't think it will ruin it. Don't they "sterilize" it this way?

Yeah, I was thinking that steam couldn't be that bad compared to some of what must go on during the processing.

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 02-05-2013, 05:20 PM
#5
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Not certain how a knot (pre-installation) is constructed, but have always thought it was bound by glue, at least in part. IF this is true, I would think the steam would tend to loosen the glue, allowing the hair to come out of the knot.

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 02-05-2013, 05:26 PM
#6
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(02-05-2013, 05:20 PM)john parker Wrote: Not certain how a knot (pre-installation) is constructed, but have always thought it was bound by glue, at least in part. IF this is true, I would think the steam would tend to loosen the glue, allowing the hair to come out of the knot.

Usually the hair is bound by a resin, creating the plug that is set into the handle usually with epoxy. In my experience the steam softens the expoxy allowing the knot to be removed, but has no effect on the resin which remains hard. I guess my main concern is wether or not the hair would get damaged.

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 02-05-2013, 05:54 PM
#7
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(02-05-2013, 05:26 PM)BladeDE40 Wrote:
(02-05-2013, 05:20 PM)john parker Wrote: Not certain how a knot (pre-installation) is constructed, but have always thought it was bound by glue, at least in part. IF this is true, I would think the steam would tend to loosen the glue, allowing the hair to come out of the knot.

Usually the hair is bound by a resin, creating the plug that is set into the handle usually with epoxy. In my experience the steam softens the expoxy allowing the knot to be removed, but has no effect on the resin which remains hard. I guess my main concern is wether or not the hair would get damaged.
Thanks, Tom! Did not know that!

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 02-05-2013, 06:09 PM
#8
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(02-05-2013, 05:54 PM)john parker Wrote:
(02-05-2013, 05:26 PM)BladeDE40 Wrote:
(02-05-2013, 05:20 PM)john parker Wrote: Not certain how a knot (pre-installation) is constructed, but have always thought it was bound by glue, at least in part. IF this is true, I would think the steam would tend to loosen the glue, allowing the hair to come out of the knot.

Usually the hair is bound by a resin, creating the plug that is set into the handle usually with epoxy. In my experience the steam softens the expoxy allowing the knot to be removed, but has no effect on the resin which remains hard. I guess my main concern is wether or not the hair would get damaged.
Thanks, Tom! Did not know that!

John, neither did I until I disassembled one. Here's a pic of a knot I recently removed showing the resin plug with some epoxy still attached to it.

   

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 02-05-2013, 08:04 PM
#9
  • vpayne
  • Active Member
  • Missouri
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The bristles will loose some or most of their resilience, almost lifeless. Sometimes that may be good, depending on what you start with. Usually the knot is rather lifeless. That has been my experience-a few times.

Vic

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 02-06-2013, 12:15 AM
#10
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The glue is normally some sort of a "hot glue" which is loosened by heat. Epoxy is a heck of a lot harder to dislodge.

If you epoxied that Parker knot, I'd just leave it. Not worth risking damaging the tips. Damage from excessive heat includes, but is not limited to, curled tips and a crunchy feeling.

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 02-06-2013, 09:29 AM
#11
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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Hi Tom

I would say it really depends on how long the brush will be in the steam bath to loosen the knot enough for removal.

Anything less than an hour and I don't believe the hair will be damaged (enough to be worried about, notice decrease in hair performance, etc).

Anything more than an hour and I would begin to seriously worry about causing real damage to the hair.

Above comments are based on my observation of an Omega 11047 taking a 3½ hour steam bath to remove the original badger/boar mix knot.

Take care, Mike

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 02-06-2013, 08:36 PM
#12
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(02-06-2013, 12:15 AM)asharperrazor Wrote: The glue is normally some sort of a "hot glue" which is loosened by heat. Epoxy is a heck of a lot harder to dislodge.

If you epoxied that Parker knot, I'd just leave it. Not worth risking damaging the tips. Damage from excessive heat includes, but is not limited to, curled tips and a crunchy feeling.

You're probably right...I think I'll just leave it as it and chock it up to a learning experience.

(02-06-2013, 09:29 AM)mikeperry Wrote: Hi Tom

I would say it really depends on how long the brush will be in the steam bath to loosen the knot enough for removal.

Anything less than an hour and I don't believe the hair will be damaged (enough to be worried about, notice decrease in hair performance, etc).

Anything more than an hour and I would begin to seriously worry about causing real damage to the hair.

Above comments are based on my observation of an Omega 11047 taking a 3½ hour steam bath to remove the original badger/boar mix knot.

Take care, Mike

Wow that's quite a long time. I've removed 2 knots and both have come out w/in 20 minutes of steaming...I used a rice cooker to stem them out, so I don't know if that sped up the process or not.

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 02-07-2013, 03:12 AM
#13
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The experiences that I have had, and seen from others, is that the high heat involved with steaming degrades the natural hairs severely. Remember this is hair which is a natural protein product. We stress over and over again about if water is too hot for your skin, then it is too hot for your brush. There is no difference with steam. Hair on a living organism replaces itself, hair on a brush cannot.

I have seen the steam method ruin even Muhle synthetic knots. A member of another forum tried the steam method to remove a Muhle knot in order to shorten the loft. He stated that when he replaced the knot, the fibers had lost their springiness and were rendered in his terms lifeless and not as good to lather with. He realized that the steaming had straightened out many of the fibers that were crimped. His solution was to order a replacement knot from Muhle and decided not to do that again.

My general advice is with restorations, choose the item you want. Choose the knot and wreck the handle to get it out cleanly, or destroy the knot to reuse the handle.

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 02-07-2013, 01:58 PM
#14
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(02-07-2013, 03:12 AM)GDCarrington Wrote: The experiences that I have had, and seen from others, is that the high heat involved with steaming degrades the natural hairs severely. Remember this is hair which is a natural protein product. We stress over and over again about if water is too hot for your skin, then it is too hot for your brush. There is no difference with steam. Hair on a living organism replaces itself, hair on a brush cannot.

I have seen the steam method ruin even Muhle synthetic knots. A member of another forum tried the steam method to remove a Muhle knot in order to shorten the loft. He stated that when he replaced the knot, the fibers had lost their springiness and were rendered in his terms lifeless and not as good to lather with. He realized that the steaming had straightened out many of the fibers that were crimped. His solution was to order a replacement knot from Muhle and decided not to do that again.

My general advice is with restorations, choose the item you want. Choose the knot and wreck the handle to get it out cleanly, or destroy the knot to reuse the handle.

Good advice, thanks Gary!

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 02-08-2013, 01:16 PM
#15
  • Crag
  • Senior Member
  • Menifee, Ca 92586
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I know this is sort of off-topic but I have a friend who curled his Dog's Hair for Competitions and shows, so I'm not so sure that steam with do much to the hair...we are talking a HOT Flat or Curling iron and I think that gets hotter than steam...

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 02-08-2013, 01:45 PM
#16
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First of all, Teiste has told me to cover the hair with aluminum. This works wonders btw.

Secondly, after 1 hour of steaming, the hair tips curl and the hair becomes crunchy when dry. Oddly enough, the hair returns to normal after enough latherings, but I am fairly certain there was some permanent damage done. Not recommended in either case.

Longer than 30 minutes of steaming = don't even bother. IMO. Too much risk of damage and at that point, you probably aren't going to get that knot out. If the glue isn't loosening after 30 minutes, just give it up. Again, IMO.

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 02-08-2013, 02:14 PM
#17
  • vuk
  • Senior Member
  • Virginia
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Steam can actually vary quite a bit in temperature and wetness (steam quality we called it in thermodynamics class).
The idea of insulating the hairs to protect from the steam seems like a good one.
You may be able to remove the knot with torsion by holding the handle in one hand and the knot in the other and twisting. I did that with my vdh brush. It depends on what kind epoxy and how well you epoxied it the first time. There’s always a risk of damaging it so it depends on how badly you want to change it. Good luck.

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 02-08-2013, 03:16 PM
#18
  • Crag
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  • Menifee, Ca 92586
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(02-08-2013, 01:45 PM)asharperrazor Wrote: Longer than 30 minutes of steaming = don't even bother. IMO. Too much risk of damage and at that point, you probably aren't going to get that knot out. If the glue isn't loosening after 30 minutes, just give it up. Again, IMO.

I think my understanding was flawed...30 Minutes...wow...yeah that a horse of a different color there!

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 02-08-2013, 03:27 PM
#19
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Yeah, it takes a good while to steam a knot out.

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