04-07-2012, 04:46 PM
#1
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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After reading Teiste's Shaving Brushes restorations post I decided to have a go at removing the Best Badger knot and replacing it with a 22mm Super Badger BULB knot from The Golden Nib...

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Edwin Jagger (Ivory handle) Best Badger knot


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Edwin Jagger inside glass jar (ready for steam bath)


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Edwin Jagger (inside glass jar) placed into pot filled with boiling water (steam bath). After photo was taken, lid was put on and steam bath began...


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Edwin Jagger (Ivory handle) Best Badger knot removed from handle after 50 minutes in steam bath


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Edwin Jagger (Ivory) handle in two pieces after unsuccessful clean up. Some details about the failure can be read here...

If anyone can help me track down a (new) shaving brush handle I can fit the above 22mm Super Badger knot in, please go here...

Edit: Updated thread title. Removed TGN 22mm Super Badger knot photos.

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 04-07-2012, 05:47 PM
#2
  • Teiste
  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Salt Lake City,UT
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Mike,Im really sorry about what happened to that handle.
I never have experienced that problem,but its there,as we all can clearly see.
I dont know what to tell you.I have done this last friday with a Vulfix 404 brush and I didnt have a problem to "clean it" (I did record a brief video about it that Ill post soon).
Once again,Im sorry about what happened.Hope you can find a nice handle to put that knot.

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 04-07-2012, 07:51 PM
#3
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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(04-07-2012, 05:47 PM)Teiste Wrote: Mike,Im really sorry about what happened to that handle.
I never have experienced that problem,but its there,as we all can clearly see.
I dont know what to tell you.I have done this last friday with a Vulfix 404 brush and I didnt have a problem to "clean it" (I did record a brief video about it that Ill post soon).
Once again,Im sorry about what happened.Hope you can find a nice handle to put that knot.

Hi Teiste

No worries, and as I said overhere, it was my own stupid fault...

I'll admit I do wish it hadn't happened on that particular handle, but things happen (and I've learnt from it, next time I respect the process a LOT! more).

I look forward to seeing the video you're putting together on this procedure.

Take care, Mike

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 04-27-2012, 11:54 AM
#4
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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(04-07-2012, 07:51 PM)mikeperry Wrote: No worries, and as I said overhere, it was my own stupid fault...

I'll admit I do wish it hadn't happened on that particular handle, but things happen (and I've learnt from it, next time I respect the process a LOT! more).

As this was my very first shaving brush I simply couldn't bring myself to throw it in the bin.

I therefore decided to have a go at saving it, it couldn't get any worse, could it?

Without damaging the handle any further I very! carefully cleaned all the remaining glue out of the knot hole.

After successfully completing that task I moved onto "gluing" the broken pieces back onto the handle using "5 Minute Epoxy" and strips of blue decorators tape (used as clamps to correctly hold the pieces while the epoxy dried).

After letting everything setup the best it could for a couple of weeks, I very! carefully sanded the handle as smooth as I could get it (might have to pick up some higher grit sandpaper and try to achieve a silky smooth finish).

Originally I had planned to widen the knot hole by 1mm to accept a 22mm knot (original knot was 21mm), hence ordering a 22mm Super Badger (bulb knot from The Golden Nib).

After taking into account what happened I decided against trying to widen the knot hole, instead I contacted The Golden Nib to see if they would exchange the 22mm Super Badger knot I had bought for a 20mm Silvertip Grade A knot. Not a problem, so long as the returned knot arrives back to them as good as the day it was originally shipped -- today I got confirmation from The Golden Nib that my replacement 20mm Silvertip Grade A knot had been shipped along with a couple of 22mm Super Silvertip (bulb) knots for these shaving brush handles).

Hat-tip to The Golden Nib for first class customer service, they will most definitely get further business from myself and I will without question recommend them to others in the future Thumbup

So, below couple of photos shows where I currently stand on this project...

[Image: CquwE.jpg] [Image: tNiTg.jpg]

As you can see the repair isn't perfect, the crack line is visible (but the epoxy has done a very! good job at securely attaching the broken pieces back onto the handle).

If anyone has any suggestions on removing or a way to better hide the crack line I'm all ears.

What next?
  • Maybe pick up some higher grit sandpaper and try to achieve a more polished finish.
  • Maybe pick up some clear (waterproof) lacquer and coat the handle a few times.
  • When the new knot arrives, decide on final loft height, then set knot at chosen height using "5 Minute Epoxy".
  • Post photo of completed project here.

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 04-27-2012, 07:33 PM
#5
  • MaxP
  • Senior Member
  • Madison, WI
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Kudos for giving it a second chance!

I expect that when you're done, the extra effort you've put into will endear you to the brush in a way that wouldn't have otherwise happened.
Please keep posting your progress.

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 04-27-2012, 07:44 PM
#6
  • Johnny
  • Super Moderator
  • Wausau, Wisconsin, USA
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You are a better man than me, Mike. Back in my younger days, I would have thrown that broken handle across the garage, and probably have broken something else. I use to have a bad temper/short fuse. Now I glue everything back together. I just hate to throw anything away if it can be fixed.

Looking forward to seeing your finished product.

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 05-03-2012, 08:32 AM
#7
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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(04-27-2012, 11:54 AM)mikeperry Wrote: I therefore decided to have a go at saving it, it couldn't get any worse, could it?

What next?
  • Maybe pick up some higher grit sandpaper and try to achieve a more polished finish.
  • Maybe pick up some clear (waterproof) lacquer and coat the handle a few times.
  • When the new knot arrives, decide on final loft height, then set knot at chosen height using "5 Minute Epoxy".
  • Post photo of completed project here.

Me and my big mouth, when am I ever going to learn to keep it shut...

So I took some additional time to sand the handle even smoother, then applied a few coats of clear (waterproof) lacquer. Everything looked good at that stage.

Moved onto fitting the knot (a TGN 20mm Silvertip Grade A "Bulb")...

[Image: nMcwp.jpg]

The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot)



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Edwin Jagger (Ivory) handle fitted with The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot), set at a loft of 47mm using 5 Minute Epoxy



[Image: SKaSi.jpg]

Edwin Jagger (Ivory) handle fitted with The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot), set at a loft of 47mm using 5 Minute Epoxy

After letting everything set-up for 24 hours, still looking good, I decide it was time to give the brush a try...

This is what I found the following morning...

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Edwin Jagger (Ivory) handle fitted with The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot, post bloom)



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Edwin Jagger (Ivory) handle, failure along "existing" crack line

Why did it fail?
  • Not enough surface area along the crack to apply an adequate amount of "glue" (Epoxy), therefore unsatisfactory strength achieved along the glued crack line.
  • Set the knot (20mm) too deeply for the hole (original knot was 21mm), therefore applying too much pressure on the inside face of the knot hole, which resulted in handle cracking along weakest point ("existing" crack line).
  • Holding pressure while using the brush was too much for the weak repair.
My guess, all 3 points probably contributed to the weak repair failing, along with other factors I've not thought of...

What now?
  • I'm not going to try to repair the handle again.
  • Very! carefully remove the new 20mm Silvertip Grade A knot and reuse it elsewhere (probably ask Rodney Neep to make me another handle).
  • Take "GearHead_1" idea from here and look at making a razor stand from the bottom part of the handle (fingers-crossed there will be enough left to make it a successful razor stand project).

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 05-03-2012, 09:04 AM
#8
  • Johnny
  • Super Moderator
  • Wausau, Wisconsin, USA
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That's a shame but just shows how much pressure is created when the hairs get wet and start to swell up. You can see how much it blooms, just imagine what the knot is trying to do.

Razor stand sounds like a good idea.

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 05-08-2012, 05:48 PM
#9
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Man, that sucks...

I hope you are able to salvage for the razor stand. I have that handle as well (also my first brush) and have considered fitting it with a better knot. Guess I will need to be extra careful with it.

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 05-08-2012, 05:54 PM
#10
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I am sorry it did not work out. It seems that if you try long enough restoring brushes this or something similar will happen. I went through the same thing recently. The knot you upgraded it with can be reused and that is the most important thing.

Good fortune on the next adventure.

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 05-08-2012, 06:35 PM
#11
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(05-03-2012, 08:32 AM)mikeperry Wrote: Take "GearHead_1" idea from here and look at making a razor stand from the bottom part of the handle (fingers-crossed there will be enough left to make it a successful razor stand project).

I actually ground my broken handle down today. It ended up being a bit shorter than I thought it might. It didn't appear that the broken pieces went so deep. Wishing it were a bit taller, not so much from an aesthetic perspective but from a mass/weight stand point. I'm still thinking about how to make this work. I have some tungsten powder left over from my golf club making days and may take the hole deep and add the powder to keep some weight low in the handle. Anyway still working on it.

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 05-09-2012, 07:55 AM
#12
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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(05-08-2012, 05:48 PM)cjokrap Wrote: Man, that sucks...

I hope you are able to salvage for the razor stand. I have that handle as well (also my first brush) and have considered fitting it with a better knot. Guess I will need to be extra careful with it.

Hi Charlie

It really was my own stupid fault that the handle broke in the first place...


Good luck if you do decide to give it a go with your brush, and please post photos of your success Smile

Take care, Mike

(05-08-2012, 05:54 PM)GDCarrington Wrote: I am sorry it did not work out. It seems that if you try long enough restoring brushes this or something similar will happen. I went through the same thing recently. The knot you upgraded it with can be reused and that is the most important thing.

Good fortune on the next adventure.

Hi

Thank you Smile

Fingers-crossed I've learnt my lesson, and in future I will show more care, respect to the process...

Take care, Mike

(05-08-2012, 06:35 PM)GearHead_1 Wrote: I actually ground my broken handle down today. It ended up being a bit shorter than I thought it might. It didn't appear that the broken pieces went so deep. Wishing it were a bit taller, not so much from an aesthetic perspective but from a mass/weight stand point. I'm still thinking about how to make this work. I have some tungsten powder left over from my golf club making days and may take the hole deep and add the powder to keep some weight low in the handle. Anyway still working on it.

Hi

That is also my main concern, I won't end up with enough handle left to make it work, but I do plan to give it a go nevertheless...

Good luck with your razor stand project and please keep us updated on its progress, success Smile

Take care, Mike

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 06-07-2012, 03:10 PM
#13
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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(05-03-2012, 08:32 AM)mikeperry Wrote: What now?
  • I'm not going to try to repair the handle again.
  • Very! carefully remove the new 20mm Silvertip Grade A knot and reuse it elsewhere (probably ask Rodney Neep to make me another handle).
  • Take "GearHead_1" idea from here and look at making a razor stand from the bottom part of the handle (fingers-crossed there will be enough left to make it a successful razor stand project).

After going through the pleasant experiencing of doing business with Rod_Neep and ending up with two (very) nice shaving brushes (even if I do say so myself), I thought it only fair that dad (I) should also be a proud owner of a Rod_Neep shaving brush handle...

Long story short, after successfully removing the 20mm Silvertip Grade A knot from the cracked Edwin Jagger handle I contacted Rod and inquired if he would be willing to make me another shaving brush handle. He kindly agreed, we agreed specs of the handle I wanted made, even though I was fitting a 20mm knot this time around I requested a 22mm knot hole (thinking ahead if I ever needed to re-knot sometime further down the road I would more than likely go with a 22mm knot).

Handle specs:
  • Material - Amber
  • Dimensions - Height: 89mm / Loft: 44mm / Base: 45mm / Knot: 20mm / Knot hole diameter: 22mm / Knot hole depth: 18mm
  • Handle shape name - Dumpy Vase (unless someone comes up with a better fitting name).
Below are the results of Rod's first class work and my minimal involvement of gluing (via 5 Minute Epoxy) the 20mm Silvertip Grade A knot into the knot hole.

[Image: MXVNM.jpg]

The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot), salvaged from the cracked Edwin Jagger handle



[Image: Xd5zc.jpg]

The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot), salvaged from the cracked Edwin Jagger handle



[Image: XeIcH.jpg]

Amber "Dumpy Vase" handle & The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot), salvaged from the cracked Edwin Jagger handle



[Image: 8ivnX.jpg]

Amber "Dumpy Vase" handle



[Image: rpCex.jpg]

Amber "Dumpy Vase" handle & The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot)

The "Dumpy Vase" handle shape is very similar to the Vie-Long Zurito - 13061 Horse Hair shaving brush handle, therefore in my book it's an absolutely joy to hold in the hand, extremely comfortable, and the Amber material used is simply stunning.

Post-bloom photos to follow at a later date...

Edit: Fixed grammar.

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 06-07-2012, 03:23 PM
#14
  • Teiste
  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Salt Lake City,UT
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I have a Vulfix VS5 handle with a 22 mm sivertip grade A badger knot from TGN,which is one of my fav brushes.Im sure you are gonna enjoy that silvertip badger hair.

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 06-07-2012, 05:05 PM
#15
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Congratulations on a good looking brush that should serve you well. Mike, this is my first post in the EJ handle thread but I have followed the ups and downs in this project and I must say that I admire you for your patience and perseverance.

I imagine you already have a special bond with that brush.

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 06-07-2012, 06:13 PM
#16
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Well, from lemons, lemonade!

Nicely done and a nice looking brush.

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 06-07-2012, 09:05 PM
#17
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Unfortunate, Mike. Good luck finding a handle.

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 06-21-2012, 10:13 AM
#18
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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(06-07-2012, 03:10 PM)mikeperry Wrote: Post-bloom photos to follow at a later date...

So far so good with The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot), set at a loft height of 45mm.

The hair is nice and soft, feels great on the face while building lather.

Brush has plenty of backbone, no real surprise there seeing as I went with a 44mm loft height.

The knot is well packed, but not overly so, therefore isn't a lather hog ie Offers good flow through, lather is released without a fight.

To date (used 4 or 5 times) the knot has only lost 3 hairs, am extremely pleased and somewhat happily surprised the knot has lost so few hairs (so far), as I was concerned I may had damaged the knot while removing it from the cracked Edwin Jagger handle - even though I was as careful as I could be when removing it...

Knot has no problem holding enough lather for multiple passes (3 passes is my maximum).

[Image: btt2n.jpg]

Amber "Dumpy Vase" handle & The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot, post bloom)



[Image: G7YEk.jpg]

Amber "Dumpy Vase" handle & The Golden Nib - 20mm Silvertip Grade A (bulb knot, post bloom)

Edit: Fixed grammar.

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 11-12-2012, 09:37 AM
#19
  • vferdman
  • Artisan
  • Western Massachusetts
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Mike, this is a great looking brush. I love this handle. Just saw you used this brush for SOTD today and followed your link to this thread. Great job on the final result despite the setbacks.

In hindsight you got a much cooler looking brush than the EJ handle would have yielded.

Great job and enjoy the brush! I love it.

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 11-12-2012, 11:39 AM
#20
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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(11-12-2012, 09:37 AM)vferdman Wrote: Mike, this is a great looking brush. I love this handle. Just saw you used this brush for SOTD today and followed your link to this thread. Great job on the final result despite the setbacks.

In hindsight you got a much cooler looking brush than the EJ handle would have yielded.

Great job and enjoy the brush! I love it.

Hi

Thank you Smile

I still wish I hadn't destroyed my first shaving brush (with hindsight I should never had tried to re-knot it in the first place), but I'm more than pleased with the brush I ended up... The handle is beautiful to look at and is extremely comfortable to use, plus overall I'm very happy with TGN Silvertip Grade A knot.

Take care, Mike

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