06-02-2013, 10:23 AM
#1
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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So I have a used kamisori that had tiny chipping on the edge near the toe.
I have worked tem out using a 45 degree angle to the 1k Norton.
Prior to this, the blade would cut hair from my forearm. Now it cannot.

I have spent probably 4 hrs trying to figure out how to get the edge set properly again.
Hasn't happened.

I have only the 1k Norton, and a 4k/8k Norton combo to work with at the lower grits.

How much pressure should I be applying to the wedge side down against the 4k?
What should this pressure feel like?

I have read several places on stroke ratios... but I haven't seen anything descibing the pressure in detail and how long to expect a non-hair cutting edge to get back into shape. :s

Any help appreciated. Sad

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 06-02-2013, 10:55 AM
#2
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I use a simular method to Glen gssixguns from over on the straight razor place, what I would say because of the nature of the Kamisori having a single bevel I cannot emphasise how much the edge will improve greatly with a good stropping, what I've found is there will be a larger than average burr on a Kamisori compared to a traditional razor.

Jamie.




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 06-02-2013, 03:23 PM
#3
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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Thanks for sharing Jamie!
Should I try adding 20 laps on a strop every 10 sets of honing?

I have watched that video a couple times. Perhaps I am applying too much pressure.

Perhaps I need to move up to my Chinese hone since it is much longer than the small Norton set I purchased from Larry at Whipped Dog.


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 06-02-2013, 08:47 PM
#4
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Adding 20 laps on the strop in between honing is certainly worth trying out, tell us how it goes, sometimes good results are found out with a little experimentation.

Jamie.

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 06-04-2013, 06:17 AM
#5
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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Ok
So I used the Chinese hone, applied slurry by using the matching stone.
   
I honed 4 sets of 10:1 ratio
2 sets of 20 small circles only wedge side

Rinsed .. stropped
Repeated along with stropping.

the edge felt much more refined.
I felt it may be close to cutting arm hair. So instead of continuing with slurry.
I moved to Naniwa 12k
   

I did 3 sets of 10:1 ratio
And the heel of the edge is now sharp!
Cutting arm hair at the heel. Shy

Should I now concentrate on moving the blade with pressure from center to toe of edge?
:-/
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 06-04-2013, 07:55 AM
#6
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When you think you are there try 20 or 30 passes on a chromium oxide pasted bench strop, then 60 or 70 linen then the same on leather then see what the edge is like.

Jamie

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 06-04-2013, 09:38 AM
#7
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Sharpening a kamisori is the same principle as sharpening a symmetrical (western) razor.

The huge difference is that one side is a wedge and one side is hollow.

If you have experience sharpening a wedge without tape, you will know that most of the metal you're removing is along the bevel and you won't touch the actual edge until you've widened the bevel considerably.

Hollows OTOH are quickly sharpened. The edge is easily reached within a few strokes.

Knowing this, you have to just keep removing metal from the wedge side until you hit the edge. Then you can progress to the finer grits. The hollow side is most likely fine, so you can safely ignore it until the end and then do a couple of strokes to remove any burrs. However, if you're removing a lot of metal, you want to even out the wear.

After you've set the bevel, you can follow whatever regimen you want, but the basics of the above remain the same. It takes more strokes to accomplish the same thing on the wedge side than it does on the hollow side.

You could "cheat" and use tape too.

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 06-06-2013, 07:07 AM
#8
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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Update:
I did 3 more sets of 10:1 on the Naniwa 12k
Followed by the Jamie's stropping suggestion (paste is on back side of a leather hanging strop)

It looks more polished but edge is cutting the same.
I will go back to the Chinese hone tonight.

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 06-06-2013, 08:16 AM
#9
  • TexBilly
  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Austin, TX
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This is a good read and even though I gave up on straights, the engineer in me is fascinated! Good luck!

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 06-06-2013, 10:53 AM
#10
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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Thank you all for the input and reading of this thread Smile

Btw this is my first ever bevel/edge setting of any type of straight razor!
Biggrin


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 06-08-2013, 10:37 AM
#11
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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Update
I went to the Chinese hone using the matching slurry stone and did 6 sets of 10:1 ratio.
used Jamie's stropping suggestion.

came back to do several sets of circles (anywhere from 10 to 20 circles per set) with pressure focused around the center and toe of blade edge. The heel of the blade edge plenty sharp.

rinsed stone, light lapping to remove any debris.
built up slurry again, and did 6 more sets of 10:1 ratio.

cleaned up the stone, and did chamfer the edges to get them smooth.

I threw in a few sets (3-5) of skate-board grinds along the chamfered long edges using a 3:1 ratio. Light Pressure - just enough to handle the blade without losing control.

To do this, I ensured that the wedge side down to grind had the full back side balanced properly and at a comfortable angle to pull/push the razor with the heel toward my body.
Pulled on the right chamfered ridge, pushed on the left edge.
   

again, did the stropping progression -
edge started popping arm hairs! Smile

I went back to the Naniwa 12k for 6 sets of 10:1 ratio (pressure getting lighter, only enough to keep the edge down on the wedge side and the spine down for the hollow side).
Threw in some light pressure sets (3-4) of 20 small circles.
Rinsed stone, lightly lapped to remove any debris.

Came back and did 10 sets of 7:1 ratio with controlled gliding pressure.
did the stropping progression.

I now have a kamisori ready for a test drive! (keeping my 2013 Muhle R41 head with custom UFO handle at the ready).

I will come back and report how this first test shave goes!
Biggrin

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 06-08-2013, 11:26 AM
#12
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Good show James, hope the razor delivers the shave you deserve, after all it's not for the want of effort you've put in honing the razor.

Jamie.

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 06-09-2013, 06:23 PM
#13
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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Thank you Jamie Smile

Well, it wasn't shave ready, skipped on my check-to-jawline test. So I finished up my shave with the Safety Razor.

Update:
I went back and read Lynn's Wiki on SRP forum about Pyramids, and modified it to fit the stones I have available.

The stones used were my small Norton 4k/8k (combo), and my Naniwa 12k.

First Pyramid was the described 4k to 8k series, but modified to be the 10:1 ratio for the kamisori (with a little modifying).

first set is 25 on the 4k and 25 on the 8k, I did 25:3 ratio
moved on down to 20 on the 4k and 20 on the 8k, 20:3 ratio
down to 15 on the 4k and 15 on the 8k, 15:2 ratio
down to 10 on the 4k and 10 on the 8k, 10:1 ratio
down to 5 on the 4k and 5 on the 8k, 5:1 ratio
down to 1 on the 4k and 1 on the 8k, 1:1 ratio
1 on the 4k, 3 on the 8k (1:1 on the 4k and 3:1 on the 8k)
1 on the 4k, 5 on the 8k (1:1 on the 4k and 5:1 on the 8k)

that is to keep it simple for the spirit of the pyramid.
I doubled the numbers since my Norton combo stone is approximately half the length of my normal sized Naniwa 12k.

after that series, I did Jamie's suggested stropping progression (all hanging strops since I don't have a bench strop).

edge felt much improved, however the toe needed some circle-lovin (after-effects of removing tiny chipping)

I did some tiny circles (very light pressure- only to control the blade!), focused around the toe of the blade edge, in a pyramid starting at 15
10
5
1
using Norton 4k to 8k.
There were some very small anomalies left, but satisfied with how it came along.
I moved to doing the same honing pyramid and ratios described above with the 8k side of the Norton, and the Naniwa 12k.

after I finished that pyramid (again, double the numbers for the smaller 8k to essentially equal a *full stroke*) I rinsed, the debris.
Used the stropping progression.

went back to the Naniwa 12k and did gliding pressure only strokes going 10 sets of 7:2 ratio.

cleaned up the stones, rinsed and dried the kamisori.

did the stropping progression, and it felt much cleaner on my arm hair test.

Now I need to wait a couple days to get some growth of hair back to my cheeks for my next test drive! Biggrin
   
   

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 06-12-2013, 02:03 PM
#14
  • Attila
  • The Hungarian Blade
  • Vancouver, Canada
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Oh man! How long has all of this honing taken you?

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 06-14-2013, 05:48 AM
#15
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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(06-12-2013, 02:03 PM)Attila Wrote: Oh man! How long has all of this honing taken you?

I have taken it slow and steady being that it is my first ever honing...
All together it has been somewhere around 7hrs
Blush
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 06-14-2013, 10:34 AM
#16
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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Hi James

A good and interesting read.

How is the sharpened blade now shaving?

Take care, Mike

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 06-15-2013, 06:20 AM
#17
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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(06-14-2013, 10:34 AM)mikeperry Wrote: Hi James

A good and interesting read.

How is the sharpened blade now shaving?

Take care, Mike

Hey Mike Smile
I am looking to shave this evening to see how it feels.

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 06-18-2013, 04:55 AM
#18
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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Update:
I did a shave test last night with six days hair growth, and although I chose not to continue past my cheeks, it was evident that the edge is set.
It proved what I already was thinking- the toe area needs some work to cut clean like the other 4/5ths of the kamisori edge.
Most of the edge has a sticky grab on the pads of fingers!

Almost there!
Cool


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 06-19-2013, 01:38 PM
#19
  • mikeperry
  • Senior Member
  • St Louis via the UK
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(06-18-2013, 04:55 AM)gijames Wrote: ... Most of the edge has a sticky grab on the pads of fingers!

Almost there!
Cool

Hi James

Good to hear and continued success on getting the complete edge shave ready...

Take care, Mike

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 06-23-2013, 06:00 PM
#20
  • gijames
  • Mile High Soldier
  • TN, USA
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Thanks again Mike for the encouragement Smile

UPDATE:
Wednesday evening
I split my *final*, yes I said FINAL, honing sessions up into two days.

the tools
   
I started with the Norton 4k/8k combo stone for my last session - part 1 (45 minutes)
This session was primarily to resolve the toe of the edge not being shave ready.

The DMT 8'c' (metal hone in the photo) was used to bring up a slurry for each session of the Norton 4k/8k stone

Norton 4k
3 laps of 20 circles on the toe wedge side (20 toward me and 20 away from me), 1 lap of 20 circles on the toe *hollow* side, using the 4k (white) side of the Norton

3 laps of kamisori 7:2 ratio for the whole edge on the 4k

did another 3 laps of 20 circles on the toe wedge side (20 toward me and 20 away from me), 1 lap of 20 circles on the toe *hollow* side, using the 4k

3 laps of 7:2 ratio for the whole edge on the 4k

moved to Norton 8k (yellow side of stone) using the same honing progression as the 4k side

razor was popping forearm hairs all over the place on the edge!

Used Jamie's stropping progression mentioned earlier in the thread, but I only have hanging strops
Biggrin

Saturday Morning
The Naniwa 12k Super Stone (long white freckled stone on the right in the photo above) was used for this 40 minute session.

Strictly a *finishing* day, but well spent!
I did somewhere between 12-15 laps of the kamisori 7:2 ratio
After lap 8, I did Jamie's stropping progression

when I finished the finishing session, I once again used the stropping progression.
The edge felt great, looked great on both sides of the blade!
... cleaned up my table, stored all items, did yard work Tongue
   
   
The evening Shave
A nice shower to wash off the hot summer's day work in the yard
and it was freakin' FAN_TAS_TIC!!!
   
Cool
The 2013 R41 head with my Custom UFO handle was used for touch-up

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