10-19-2013, 09:44 AM
#1
  • Westaway
  • Junior Member
  • Lawrenceville, GA
User Info
I recently found two used razors on Ebay that a fellow in Puerto Rico had put up for sale. A Muhle R41 (2011) and a FaTip Picolo in Nickel. It was a perfect find because I had been wanting to get a 41 and someone on this Forum had advised me to try out the FaTip before investing heavily in Joris.

Most comments about the R41 that I had read have obviously described it as an extremely aggressive razor and it is almost like you either love it or hate it. My opinion was not firmly made up until the fourth time around this morning. The first three shaves were very difficult. I had smooth moments and very uncomfortable ones. This morning there were two factors that affected the final outcome. I had watched a YouTube demo a couple of weeks ago and recalled that the angle that the "expert" was using had the razor handle almost exactly parallel to the face. I started out with an almost new Feather Blade that I had used the day before. One edge seemed extremely rough and uncomfortable while the other edge was smooth and pleasant. I immediately relathered the small section I had attempted..... and changed blades. I unwrapped a new Astra SP and from that moment, using the parallel handle angle, the shave was extremely comfortable and amazingly close. I think maybe I might feel a little stubble in a few days. So the bottom line is that I think I have the angle right for my face. The other thing I am reminded of is that quality control by razor blade manufacturers can fail on occasion. I haven't used a lot of Feathers in my shaving career, but this is the first time I had a bad experience with one. I have used lots of Astras over time and I have gotten a bad blade on very rare occasions. Astra is pretty much my most trusted and dependable pack of blades to reach for. The Derby Extras I haven't tried in the R41. That experiment may be quite far down the road. I loved my Derby blades. I had a great buy on Amazon when I first tried them out and was very pleased. Then the next bulk order from Amazon (probably a different vendor) had very poor quality from about 30% of the blades I have used so far. Oddly enough, the Wilkinson Sword blades from Wal-Mart have a perfect record with me so far. I may try the Wilkinson out in the R41 before I take a chance on a Derby.

This morning was a wonderful experience. The new Muhle seemed much tamer and the shave was comfortable and extraordinarily close. I have only tried the FaTip out a couple of times and I will reserve judgement until I have given it a completely fair trial run. It seems to be a decent OC and I am sure it will shave very well.

The R41 is a completely new experience for me. I had three razors in rotation before the Ebay acquisitions. A Merkur 34C, a Muhle Sophist R89 CC and a Muhle Sophist OC R41 (2009 model). These three razors are quick and comfortable shaves using basically the same angles and techniques....... So the new R41 was a bit of a learning curve. My modern razors had not had any learning curve after years and years of using my father's Gillette Super Speed (which my son uses now daily).

If you are contemplating this very aggressive razor, give it a chance when you get it, you could possibly be pleasantly surprised when you find the "sweet spot=correct angle". This morning I discovered how much I love my new razor.

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 10-19-2013, 10:30 AM
#2
  • slantman
  • Expert Shaver
  • Leesburg, Florida
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Congratulations using the R41 to perfection. Once you get it right its hard to put down.

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 10-19-2013, 10:44 AM
#3
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Congrats on finding the razors, and on getting them to work for you.

You're right to encourage people to take their time before making up their minds about new (to them) razors. It doesn't always work out the first time you pick up a razor.

For me, even after many tries, the 2011 R41 just didn't work out. I could get a close shave, but I never liked using it. A lot of this is just YMMV - not every bit of hardware (or software) is going to work for everyone.

I've got a 2013 R41 (supposedly the same, but some people claim that the head-cap is wider) on the way. I hope I like it a bit more than the 2011 version.

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 10-19-2013, 12:23 PM
#4
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Congratulations on the success with the "Beast"! I have never cared for it, though.
Wait until you try a Super Iridium in it. Happy shaving! Smile

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 10-19-2013, 12:59 PM
#5
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(10-19-2013, 09:44 AM)Westaway Wrote: I recently found two used razors on Ebay that a fellow in Puerto Rico had put up for sale. A Muhle R41 (2011) and a FaTip Picolo in Nickel. It was a perfect find because I had been wanting to get a 41 and someone on this Forum had advised me to try out the FaTip before investing heavily in Joris.

Most comments about the R41 that I had read have obviously described it as an extremely aggressive razor and it is almost like you either love it or hate it. My opinion was not firmly made up until the fourth time around this morning. The first three shaves were very difficult. I had smooth moments and very uncomfortable ones. This morning there were two factors that affected the final outcome. I had watched a YouTube demo a couple of weeks ago and recalled that the angle that the "expert" was using had the razor handle almost exactly parallel to the face. I started out with an almost new Feather Blade that I had used the day before. One edge seemed extremely rough and uncomfortable while the other edge was smooth and pleasant. I immediately relathered the small section I had attempted..... and changed blades. I unwrapped a new Astra SP and from that moment, using the parallel handle angle, the shave was extremely comfortable and amazingly close. I think maybe I might feel a little stubble in a few days. So the bottom line is that I think I have the angle right for my face. The other thing I am reminded of is that quality control by razor blade manufacturers can fail on occasion. I haven't used a lot of Feathers in my shaving career, but this is the first time I had a bad experience with one. I have used lots of Astras over time and I have gotten a bad blade on very rare occasions. Astra is pretty much my most trusted and dependable pack of blades to reach for. The Derby Extras I haven't tried in the R41. That experiment may be quite far down the road. I loved my Derby blades. I had a great buy on Amazon when I first tried them out and was very pleased. Then the next bulk order from Amazon (probably a different vendor) had very poor quality from about 30% of the blades I have used so far. Oddly enough, the Wilkinson Sword blades from Wal-Mart have a perfect record with me so far. I may try the Wilkinson out in the R41 before I take a chance on a Derby.

This morning was a wonderful experience. The new Muhle seemed much tamer and the shave was comfortable and extraordinarily close. I have only tried the FaTip out a couple of times and I will reserve judgement until I have given it a completely fair trial run. It seems to be a decent OC and I am sure it will shave very well.

The R41 is a completely new experience for me. I had three razors in rotation before the Ebay acquisitions. A Merkur 34C, a Muhle Sophist R89 CC and a Muhle Sophist OC R41 (2009 model). These three razors are quick and comfortable shaves using basically the same angles and techniques....... So the new R41 was a bit of a learning curve. My modern razors had not had any learning curve after years and years of using my father's Gillette Super Speed (which my son uses now daily).

If you are contemplating this very aggressive razor, give it a chance when you get it, you could possibly be pleasantly surprised when you find the "sweet spot=correct angle". This morning I discovered how much I love my new razor.
It seems that you learned pretty fast on the razor, it took me few weeks before i adjusted to the aggressiveness.

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 10-19-2013, 02:27 PM
#6
  • Hanzo
  • Senior Member
  • Oakland, California
User Info
Researching the 2011 R41 I did not buy one. I could tell from reports and videos demonstrating it I would not like it.

But I need aggression to shave my coarse beard and Samjax's review, http://shavenook.com/thread-muhle-r41-20...comparison, sold me on getting the 2013 version.

Had my first shave with it fresh from the morning mail and it was very impressive . Didn't take any especial care shaving with it and it delivered a nice shave, very clean. It will be nice to see how it performs in the future.

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 10-19-2013, 08:03 PM
#7
  • Westaway
  • Junior Member
  • Lawrenceville, GA
User Info
(10-19-2013, 02:27 PM)Hanzo Wrote: Researching the 2011 R41 I did not buy one. I could tell from reports and videos demonstrating it I would not like it.

But I need aggression to shave my coarse beard and Samjax's review, http://shavenook.com/thread-muhle-r41-20...comparison, sold me on getting the 2013 version.

Had my first shave with it fresh from the morning mail and it was very impressive . Didn't take any especial care shaving with it and it delivered a nice shave, very clean. It will be nice to see how it performs in the future.

I am glad you liked the 2013 right out of the box. My first shave with the 2011 was very tense, physically and emotionally. I would love to know from someone who has actually shaved with both models, what their impressions of the two razors are. I can't imagine that the 2013 would allow me to shave as quickly and as carelessly as my 2009 R41 (Merkur Head) lets me.

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 10-19-2013, 08:38 PM
#8
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Well, the link above is a great review on almost everything you would like to know about the differences between the R41 2011 and the 2013 versions.
I have used both and completely agree with everything that is written in the review. The 2013 version is a bit tamer, but not by much, in my opinion. I still found it to be lacking in smoothness for me. It is a very effective DE razor for those who have tough skin, in my opinion, or for those who only do one or two passes.
If you are using the R41 2009 version, then the 2013 version will not be a good shaver for you as it is much more aggressive.
If you remember the 2011 version, then just imagine a slightly tamer version, and I do mean slight. Good luck. Smile

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 10-19-2013, 09:40 PM
#9
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Dittos, but for me the difference is a bit more substantial, again it's a matter of YMMV. I can do things with the '13 that I wouldn't even contemplate with the '11. I treat that razor with respect, not so much the '13; it would need a shim or 2 for that.

That idea intrigues me. Stay tuned.

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 10-20-2013, 06:32 AM
#10
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Yay! Another steep angle R41 2011 shaver. BBS's will no longer be elusive. Your words "the shave was comfortable and extraordinarily close." means you are doing steep angle the right way.

Feather is a bad choice of blade because the edge is so sharp and so fragile. You need the smoothest thickest blade you can find that is moderately sharp. Astra SP is definitely in the right direction, but still too sharp. I use Dorco at 1 blade per shave. (they are only 8cents).

This also means you have your lather down. I found the following three work best Tallow: Mikes Natural, Cream: Kiss My Face Key Lime Moisture Shave; and Vegan: Napa Soap Ocean Blend.

Also, applying great lather and shaving is all the prep needed for this technique.

Don't let anyone tell you that you can't possibly have great shaves using the R41 2011 steep angled.

Welcome to the club.

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 10-21-2013, 05:41 AM
#11
  • Boko
  • Ex-Lurker
  • Guernsey
User Info
I'm pleased you found the Muhle R41 (2011) to your liking. I used one a year or so ago and put it away, finding it a bit harsh for me. Over the last 12 months, though, I've been learning to shave with a straight (takes time!) and I thought the other day I'd give the R41 another bash, as I might have learned a little more about angle and pressure from the straight.
Well, the shave, with a new Feather blade, was sublime. I think I was going more on feel than tring to analyse steep or shallow angles, and automatically keeping the pressure low. One pass WTG, stretching the skin as with a straight, gave a shave good enough for work, and a second pass WTG left the face as smooth as I want, with no irritation.
Is this the ultimate DE razor?
Paul

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 10-21-2013, 10:13 AM
#12
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(10-21-2013, 05:41 AM)Boko Wrote: a second pass WTG left the face as smooth as I want, with no irritation.
Is this the ultimate DE razor?
Paul

2 WTG. Interesting. I do 1 WTG 1 XTG. Then minor touch up. I think I'll experiment 2 WTG with feather and see how far I can get. Thanks for the idea.

The combinations to try are endless.

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 10-21-2013, 10:18 AM
#13
  • ischiapp
  • Senior Member
  • Ischia, Naples, Italy
User Info
Good news !! Smile
If you want to match a real beast, a monster as the hybrid Chimera, use a heavy handle with Fatip base and R41'2011 hat.
Really a close shave.CoolTongueWinkAngelBiggrinHeartLightbulb

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 10-28-2013, 02:17 PM
#14
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I just bought a 2013 R41. I also after 3 shaves love this razor!

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 10-28-2013, 03:53 PM
#15
  • Westaway
  • Junior Member
  • Lawrenceville, GA
User Info
(10-28-2013, 02:17 PM)Kerrplunk Wrote: I just bought a 2013 R41. I also after 3 shaves love this razor!

I'm glad. Every time I pick mine up I can't help but admire the fine finish and plating. It has a quality feel and heft as you are holding it and the curves are very pleasing.

On another note. I'm interested in where you purchased a 2013 model and how it is advertised. Andreas Muller emailed me today that there were no changes in the razor except for one refinement shortly after it was released. I have to give some weight to what Andreas tells me because he was the man in charge of the design of this razor and its development at Muhle. I've seen an extensive review posted on the forums that includes measurements and close up photographs. The review claims that the new 2013 is different and milder........ but the guy at Muhle who created the razor says that there was only one refinement shortly after the razor's release date.Huh

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 10-29-2013, 03:47 AM
#16
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(10-28-2013, 03:53 PM)Westaway Wrote: Andreas Muller emailed me today that there were no changes in the razor except for one refinement shortly after it was released. I have to give some weight to what Andreas tells me because he was the man in charge of the design of this razor and its development at Muhle. I've seen an extensive review posted on the forums that includes measurements and close up photographs. The review claims that the new 2013 is different and milder........ but the guy at Muhle who created the razor says that there was only one refinement shortly after the razor's release date.Huh

Come on Muhle... this just adds to the confusion.

Can you send Andreas this link and ask him to comment?:
http://shavenook.com/thread-muhle-r41-20...comparison

In that thread our own Samjax took some great pics and measurements... Both cap and baseplate heights, widths, weights and lengths are all different. One "refinement" does not ring true according to the data.

Also, I am holding both in my hands, a 2011 and a 2013. These are different razors. And both are certainly different than the original r41.

Muhle needs to clarify the r41 lineage, designation and distribution for the shaving community once and for all.

If they insist on using the same model number for different products than for goodness sake I hope they start putting a model number with definitive version designation on all their products, brushes included. v1, v2, v3.

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 10-29-2013, 04:48 AM
#17
  • Westaway
  • Junior Member
  • Lawrenceville, GA
User Info
(10-29-2013, 03:47 AM)Aimsport Wrote:
(10-28-2013, 03:53 PM)Westaway Wrote: Andreas Muller emailed me today that there were no changes in the razor except for one refinement shortly after it was released. I have to give some weight to what Andreas tells me because he was the man in charge of the design of this razor and its development at Muhle. I've seen an extensive review posted on the forums that includes measurements and close up photographs. The review claims that the new 2013 is different and milder........ but the guy at Muhle who created the razor says that there was only one refinement shortly after the razor's release date.Huh

Come on Muhle... this just adds to the confusion.

Can you send Andreas this link and ask him to comment?:
http://shavenook.com/thread-muhle-r41-20...comparison

In that thread our own Samjax took some great pics and measurements... Both cap and baseplate heights, widths, weights and lengths are all different. One "refinement" does not ring true according to the data.

Also, I am holding both in my hands, a 2011 and a 2013. These are different razors. And both are certainly different than the original r41.

Muhle needs to clarify the r41 lineage, designation and distribution for the shaving community once and for all.

If they insist on using the same model number for different products than for goodness sake I hope they start putting a model number with definitive version designation on all their products, brushes included. v1, v2, v3.

V1........There is no doubt that there are three versions of the R41. I own and shave with two of them. My original R41 was in the Sophist style with a beautiful Bog Oak handle. It has been designated on the shave forums as the 2009 model. The head was created by Merkur and shared with Muhle.

V2....... I recently purchased a mint condition used R41 from a fellow wet shaver in Puerto Rico. It is quite aggressive and its blade gap and exposure match the pictures in Samjax's popular review/analysis of the head change. My razor is easily identifiable as the 2011 model.

V3....... Here is the controversy and a huge bone that forum members seem to enjoy chewing on. I'm not an expert and do not wish to pick sides. I've spent over 35 years in a career that demanded objectivity and accurate reporting..... that said I am not 100% sure of all the facts but here is the story that is out in the light of day. First, I don't quite know where the 2013 model designation came from. Did reputable vendors begin to label the razors at some point as 2013 models? I do know that West Coast Shaving seems to be a respected vendor and on their website where the R41 is listed they say and I quote: "Muhle create a new head design in 2011. There is some rumor that the design changed in 2013, however, Muhle has confirmed this to be a rumor. The design that we carry is the latest version."

Now since I own two of these razors I am personally interested in exactly what I shave with. I had some correspondence over a year ago with Christian Muller (Muhle Co) and wrote him last week. He was traveling and gave Andreas Muller the task of responding to my inquiry. Andreas was in charge of the design and birth of the new R41, when Muhle decided to create a head uniquely different than the one Merkur supplied them. Andreas states without any ambiguity that shortly after they released the R41 (known as the 2011 Model), they released a newer version refining the original design. This accounts for the two distinctly different "new" R41 razors that everyone is comparing. Andreas also accounts for other measurements occuring when comparing R41 razors..."differences are caused by unintended variations during the manufacturing process." I'm still confused about how the label of 2013 model was decided upon and by whom..... Muhle is in complete agreement with forum statements that there are two distinctly different versions of the NEW R41.

Anyone who wishes to discuss this with either Andreas or Christian can easily contact them through the Muhle website. That is if there is still major confusion concerning these razors. I think most of the controversy has centered around the proclaimed model numbers that seem to date the two versions as to years of release. 2013 may simply be the first year that shaving forum members had the refined version sold to them and discovered that they were different than the original razors sold in the U.S. Muhle has vendors listed in many countries on their website and not one vendor is located in America..... of course there are many vendors as we know who buy and sell Muhle products.

If there are other dedicated wet shavers who can enlighten or contradict Muhle and West Coast Shaving, I'm all ears.

One last thing: Andreas has seen and is well aware of the review and the photos of the two razors. The photo on the right is of course the refinement version that Muhle released shortly after the R41 hit the market. (probably didn't show up in the U.S. right away) I think Andreas may be frustrated by now with all this 2013 model talk and people accusing Muhle of not being forthcoming. I sincerely hope that members of the forum will take the information I have provided as food for thought and do some serious and objective research on their own if there are still unanswered questions in their minds.

Bottom Line: Aimsport has certainly made a valid suggestion that Muhle and other companies should take to heart. All of this confusion, debate and disagreement would not be wasting anyone's time if they would clearly designate on their products, which version we are buying. If the refinement was substantial, and I believe it was, Muhle should have some mark that the consumer could go by. I would really like to know which version I'm buying, especially if I'm bidding on Ebay and don't want to duplicate something I already own.

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 10-29-2013, 10:22 AM
#18
  • srgjazz
  • Senior Member
  • Santa Monica
User Info
Connaught Shaving refers to it as the 2013 version.
(10-29-2013, 04:48 AM)Westaway Wrote:
(10-29-2013, 03:47 AM)Aimsport Wrote:
(10-28-2013, 03:53 PM)Westaway Wrote: Andreas Muller emailed me today that there were no changes in the razor except for one refinement shortly after it was released. I have to give some weight to what Andreas tells me because he was the man in charge of the design of this razor and its development at Muhle. I've seen an extensive review posted on the forums that includes measurements and close up photographs. The review claims that the new 2013 is different and milder........ but the guy at Muhle who created the razor says that there was only one refinement shortly after the razor's release date.Huh

Come on Muhle... this just adds to the confusion.

Can you send Andreas this link and ask him to comment?:
http://shavenook.com/thread-muhle-r41-20...comparison

In that thread our own Samjax took some great pics and measurements... Both cap and baseplate heights, widths, weights and lengths are all different. One "refinement" does not ring true according to the data.

Also, I am holding both in my hands, a 2011 and a 2013. These are different razors. And both are certainly different than the original r41.

Muhle needs to clarify the r41 lineage, designation and distribution for the shaving community once and for all.

If they insist on using the same model number for different products than for goodness sake I hope they start putting a model number with definitive version designation on all their products, brushes included. v1, v2, v3.

V1........There is no doubt that there are three versions of the R41. I own and shave with two of them. My original R41 was in the Sophist style with a beautiful Bog Oak handle. It has been designated on the shave forums as the 2009 model. The head was created by Merkur and shared with Muhle.

V2....... I recently purchased a mint condition used R41 from a fellow wet shaver in Puerto Rico. It is quite aggressive and its blade gap and exposure match the pictures in Samjax's popular review/analysis of the head change. My razor is easily identifiable as the 2011 model.

V3....... Here is the controversy and a huge bone that forum members seem to enjoy chewing on. I'm not an expert and do not wish to pick sides. I've spent over 35 years in a career that demanded objectivity and accurate reporting..... that said I am not 100% sure of all the facts but here is the story that is out in the light of day. First, I don't quite know where the 2013 model designation came from. Did reputable vendors begin to label the razors at some point as 2013 models? I do know that West Coast Shaving seems to be a respected vendor and on their website where the R41 is listed they say and I quote: "Muhle create a new head design in 2011. There is some rumor that the design changed in 2013, however, Muhle has confirmed this to be a rumor. The design that we carry is the latest version."

Now since I own two of these razors I am personally interested in exactly what I shave with. I had some correspondence over a year ago with Christian Muller (Muhle Co) and wrote him last week. He was traveling and gave Andreas Muller the task of responding to my inquiry. Andreas was in charge of the design and birth of the new R41, when Muhle decided to create a head uniquely different than the one Merkur supplied them. Andreas states without any ambiguity that shortly after they released the R41 (known as the 2011 Model), they released a newer version refining the original design. This accounts for the two distinctly different "new" R41 razors that everyone is comparing. Andreas also accounts for other measurements occuring when comparing R41 razors..."differences are caused by unintended variations during the manufacturing process." I'm still confused about how the label of 2013 model was decided upon and by whom..... Muhle is in complete agreement with forum statements that there are two distinctly different versions of the NEW R41.

Anyone who wishes to discuss this with either Andreas or Christian can easily contact them through the Muhle website. That is if there is still major confusion concerning these razors. I think most of the controversy has centered around the proclaimed model numbers that seem to date the two versions as to years of release. 2013 may simply be the first year that shaving forum members had the refined version sold to them and discovered that they were different than the original razors sold in the U.S. Muhle has vendors listed in many countries on their website and not one vendor is located in America..... of course there are many vendors as we know who buy and sell Muhle products.

If there are other dedicated wet shavers who can enlighten or contradict Muhle and West Coast Shaving, I'm all ears.

One last thing: Andreas has seen and is well aware of the review and the photos of the two razors. The photo on the right is of course the refinement version that Muhle released shortly after the R41 hit the market. (probably didn't show up in the U.S. right away) I think Andreas may be frustrated by now with all this 2013 model talk and people accusing Muhle of not being forthcoming. I sincerely hope that members of the forum will take the information I have provided as food for thought and do some serious and objective research on their own if there are still unanswered questions in their minds.

Bottom Line: Aimsport has certainly made a valid suggestion that Muhle and other companies should take to heart. All of this confusion, debate and disagreement would be not be wasting anyone's time if they would clearly designate on their products, which version we are buying. If the refinement was substantial, and I believe it was, Muhle should have some mark that the consumer could go by. I would really like to know which version I'm buying, especially if I'm bidding on Ebay and don't want to duplicate something I already own.

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 10-29-2013, 12:12 PM
#19
  • Westaway
  • Junior Member
  • Lawrenceville, GA
User Info
[quote='srgjazz' pid='305079' dateline='1383070975']
Connaught Shaving refers to it as the 2013 version.



Thanks srgjazz for pointing this out. I notice that they do not refer to the razor as a "2013 Model". Connaught says it is a "New 2013 Style."

They cannot call it a 2013 Model because Muhle has not sold a 2013 Model. They have made a refinement of the 2011 and unfortunately for us all have not marketed the refined razor in a clear and easily understood way.

Connaught knows its customer pool. Potential buyers are the old and new Wet Shavers, most of whom are members of one of the Big 3 Shaving Forums. We love to discuss and speculate and guess as to the quality of the razors, blades and brushes we want to add to our inventory. Unfortunately not everything we read (and unfortunately distribute) is spot on true. Much of this is a blend of experience, opinion and some magical amount of belief in other wet shavers' pronouncements. I would hope that nobody would take my word for anything, but research and find their information in such a way they can have total confidence in their prospective purchase. Connaught knows that there is a widespread belief among us that there is a Muhle R41 2013 Model. They simply want to make sure that we know that the razor they are selling is the very newest design (refinement that Muhle says happened). When I buy that razor, it will have the newer, refined measurements that Andreas Muller explained. A Rose is a Rose by any other name. I wish all vendors who were selling the refined newer version of the R41 would have as effective a way to communicate with us. In hind sight, West Coast Shaving's disclaimer probably does us all a disservice by not explaining about the refinement and acting like there is only one version available for sale.
Shaving

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 10-30-2013, 04:49 AM
#20
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(10-29-2013, 04:48 AM)Westaway Wrote: ... Andreas also accounts for other measurements occuring when comparing R41 razors..."differences are caused by unintended variations during the manufacturing process."

Samjax measured:
Cap Weight 2011: 11 grams
Cap Weight 2013: 13 grams

Cap Height 2011: 41.18 mm
Cap Height 2013: 42.04 mm

Cap Width 2011: 18.54 mm
Cap Width 2013: 19.89 mm

Baseplate Weight 2011: 15 grams
Baseplate Weight 2013: 16 grams

Baseplate Height 2011: 41.26 mm
Baseplate Height 2013: 42.23 mm

Baseplate Width 2011: 24.99 mm
Baseplate Width 2013: 25.20 mm

These variations are far too big to be accounted for in the manufacturing process. Perhaps if the unintended variation was caused by using the wrong CAD files to manufacture.

(10-29-2013, 04:48 AM)Westaway Wrote: I'm still confused about how the label of 2013 model was decided upon and by whom.....

Life experience shows me that if we allow a vacuum, we shouldn't be surprised by what fills it. There was no designation and the community did the best they could.

(10-29-2013, 04:48 AM)Westaway Wrote: Muhle is in complete agreement with forum statements that there are two distinctly different versions of the NEW R41.

Is only one being manufactured now, or are both still in manufacture but shipped to different continents?

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