11-17-2013, 05:36 PM
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EDIT (ben74): Geographical debate...

Inspired by discussions in relation to the Isle of Man, this thread had been commenced, for anyone wishing to further discuss issues of a geographical nature.

Posts relating to technicalities regarding geography have been relocated below to prevent derailment of another thread.

As noted already, the topic for debate is geography (and not stickers)...


(11-15-2013, 03:29 PM)ben74 Wrote:
(11-15-2013, 03:08 PM)Mouser Wrote: When did the Simpson's sticker start saying " Hand Made Great Britain" instead of " Made in England"?

There was some noise raised a little while ago by someone with obviously way too much time on there hands (or perhaps an axe to grind) that the Isle of Man wasn't technically England, hence the requirement to change to Great Britain. The stickers were produced, but I presume old stock was utilised first.

Technically, the Isle of Man is not part of Great Britain, or the United Kingdom for that matter (and thus is not a member of the EU). It is a self-governing dependancy of the the British Crown and Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state. Great Britain is the combination of England, Scotland, Wales and several surrounding islands, but does not include the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are self-governing dependencies with their own tax and legislative systems.

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 11-17-2013, 05:45 PM
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(11-17-2013, 05:36 PM)Rufus Wrote:
(11-15-2013, 03:29 PM)ben74 Wrote:
(11-15-2013, 03:08 PM)Mouser Wrote: When did the Simpson's sticker start saying " Hand Made Great Britain" instead of " Made in England"?

There was some noise raised a little while ago by someone with obviously way too much time on there hands (or perhaps an axe to grind) that the Isle of Man wasn't technically England, hence the requirement to change to Great Britain. The stickers were produced, but I presume old stock was utilised first.

Technically, the Isle of Man is not part of Great Britain, or the United Kingdom for that matter (and thus is not a member of the EU). It is a self-governing dependancy of the the British Crown and Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state. Great Britain is the combination of England, Scotland, Wales and several surrounding islands, but does not include the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are self-governing dependencies with their own tax and legislative systems.

Yes, but is a possession of the British Crown and its inhabitants are British citizens.

The island entered the control of England in 1341. After allowing a succession of feudal lords to rule the island, the British parliament purchased sovereignty over the island in 1765.

The British Isles might be the best geographical reference. The term encompasses Great Britain, the island of Ireland, and several other smaller islands, including the Isle of Man.

Just for interest sake:

Great Britain refers to the island that consists of three somewhat autonomous regions: England, Scotland, and Wales.

The United Kingdom refers to the country that includes England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Its official name is “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are often mistaken as names of countries, but they are only a part of the United Kingdom.

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 11-17-2013, 06:03 PM
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(11-17-2013, 05:45 PM)ben74 Wrote:
(11-17-2013, 05:36 PM)Rufus Wrote:
(11-15-2013, 03:29 PM)ben74 Wrote: There was some noise raised a little while ago by someone with obviously way too much time on there hands (or perhaps an axe to grind) that the Isle of Man wasn't technically England, hence the requirement to change to Great Britain. The stickers were produced, but I presume old stock was utilised first.

Technically, the Isle of Man is not part of Great Britain, or the United Kingdom for that matter (and thus is not a member of the EU). It is a self-governing dependancy of the the British Crown and Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state. Great Britain is the combination of England, Scotland, Wales and several surrounding islands, but does not include the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are self-governing dependencies with their own tax and legislative systems.

Yes, but is a possession of the British Crown and its inhabitants are British citizens.

The island entered the control of England in 1341. After allowing a succession of feudal lords to rule the island, the British parliament purchased sovereignty over the island in 1765.

The British Isles might be the best geographical reference. The term encompasses Great Britain, the island of Ireland, and several other smaller islands, including the Isle of Man.

Just for interest sake:

Great Britain refers to the island that consists of three somewhat autonomous regions: England, Scotland, and Wales.

The United Kingdom refers to the country that includes England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Its official name is “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are often mistaken as names of countries, but they are only a part of the United Kingdom.

Even so, because the Isle of Man is not part of GB or the UK,the British citizenship does not entitle them to employment and other rights of the EU. Details, details, details...alas I digress too much.Biggrin

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 11-17-2013, 06:17 PM
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(11-17-2013, 05:45 PM)ben74 Wrote:
(11-17-2013, 05:36 PM)Rufus Wrote:
(11-15-2013, 03:29 PM)ben74 Wrote: There was some noise raised a little while ago by someone with obviously way too much time on there hands (or perhaps an axe to grind) that the Isle of Man wasn't technically England, hence the requirement to change to Great Britain. The stickers were produced, but I presume old stock was utilised first.

Technically, the Isle of Man is not part of Great Britain, or the United Kingdom for that matter (and thus is not a member of the EU). It is a self-governing dependancy of the the British Crown and Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state. Great Britain is the combination of England, Scotland, Wales and several surrounding islands, but does not include the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are self-governing dependencies with their own tax and legislative systems.

Yes, but is a possession of the British Crown and its inhabitants are British citizens.

The island entered the control of England in 1341. After allowing a succession of feudal lords to rule the island, the British parliament purchased sovereignty over the island in 1765.

The British Isles might be the best geographical reference. The term encompasses Great Britain, the island of Ireland, and several other smaller islands, including the Isle of Man.

Just for interest sake:

Great Britain refers to the island that consists of three somewhat autonomous regions: England, Scotland, and Wales.

The United Kingdom refers to the country that includes England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Its official name is “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are often mistaken as names of countries, but they are only a part of the United Kingdom.

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 11-17-2013, 06:23 PM
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(11-17-2013, 05:45 PM)ben74 Wrote:
(11-17-2013, 05:36 PM)Rufus Wrote:
(11-15-2013, 03:29 PM)ben74 Wrote: There was some noise raised a little while ago by someone with obviously way too much time on there hands (or perhaps an axe to grind) that the Isle of Man wasn't technically England, hence the requirement to change to Great Britain. The stickers were produced, but I presume old stock was utilised first.

Technically, the Isle of Man is not part of Great Britain, or the United Kingdom for that matter (and thus is not a member of the EU). It is a self-governing dependancy of the the British Crown and Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state. Great Britain is the combination of England, Scotland, Wales and several surrounding islands, but does not include the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are self-governing dependencies with their own tax and legislative systems.

Yes, but is a possession of the British Crown and its inhabitants are British citizens.

The island entered the control of England in 1341. After allowing a succession of feudal lords to rule the island, the British parliament purchased sovereignty over the island in 1765.

The British Isles might be the best geographical reference. The term encompasses Great Britain, the island of Ireland, and several other smaller islands, including the Isle of Man.

Just for interest sake:

Great Britain refers to the island that consists of three somewhat autonomous regions: England, Scotland, and Wales.

The United Kingdom refers to the country that includes England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Its official name is “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are often mistaken as names of countries, but they are only a part of the United Kingdom.

Ben, Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Unlike Australia or the United States where states make up most, if not all, of the country, the U. K. is made up of individual countries. Whether or not Scotland chooses to go its own way in September, 2014 will in no way change the fact that it is indeed a country, unlike Western Australia or California, which are states and not countries.

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 11-17-2013, 06:29 PM
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(11-17-2013, 06:23 PM)freddy Wrote:
(11-17-2013, 05:45 PM)ben74 Wrote:
(11-17-2013, 05:36 PM)Rufus Wrote: Technically, the Isle of Man is not part of Great Britain, or the United Kingdom for that matter (and thus is not a member of the EU). It is a self-governing dependancy of the the British Crown and Queen Elizabeth II is the head of state. Great Britain is the combination of England, Scotland, Wales and several surrounding islands, but does not include the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are self-governing dependencies with their own tax and legislative systems.

Yes, but is a possession of the British Crown and its inhabitants are British citizens.

The island entered the control of England in 1341. After allowing a succession of feudal lords to rule the island, the British parliament purchased sovereignty over the island in 1765.

The British Isles might be the best geographical reference. The term encompasses Great Britain, the island of Ireland, and several other smaller islands, including the Isle of Man.

Just for interest sake:

Great Britain refers to the island that consists of three somewhat autonomous regions: England, Scotland, and Wales.

The United Kingdom refers to the country that includes England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Its official name is “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.” England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are often mistaken as names of countries, but they are only a part of the United Kingdom.

Ben, Scotland is a country that is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Unlike Australia or the United States where states make up most, if not all, of the country, the U. K. is made up of individual countries. Whether or not Scotland chooses to go its own way in September, 2014 will in no way change the fact that it is indeed a country, unlike Western Australia or California, which are states and not countries.

Again another area of debate and confusion.

There is an interesting article here in relation to criteria for establishing whether an entity is an independent country.

Since this is an interesting topic, my suggestion is these posts are transferred to a new thread in the parlour with a geographical title for further dissuasion... ?

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 11-17-2013, 06:31 PM
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I really seem to have opened Pandora's box.

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 11-17-2013, 06:44 PM
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(11-17-2013, 06:29 PM)ben74 Wrote: Again another area of debate and confusion.

There is an interesting article here in relation to criteria for establishing whether an entity is an independent country.

Since this is an interesting topic, my suggestion is these posts are transferred to a new thread in the parlour with a geographical title for further dissuasion... ?


I think this an excellent idea.

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 11-17-2013, 06:53 PM
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Inspired by discussions in relation to the Isle of Man, this thread had been commenced, for anyone wishing to further discuss issues of a geographical nature.

Posts relating to technicalities regarding geography have been relocated below to prevent derailment of another thread.

As noted already, the topic for debate is geography (and not stickers)...

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 11-17-2013, 08:05 PM
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(11-17-2013, 06:53 PM)ben74 Wrote: Inspired by discussions in relation to the Isle of Man, this thread had been commenced, for anyone wishing to further discuss issues of a geographical nature.

Posts relating to technicalities regarding geography have been relocated below to prevent derailment of another thread.

As noted already, the topic for debate is geography (and not stickers)...

Isle of Man is one of the most interesting independent regions on Earth. Per Wikipedia (not the best source but the sources cited are almost all UK / IM government sites):

Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom.

Great Britain is solely responsible for defense of the Island, there is no military at all there.

Isle of Man passports say "British Islands - Isle of Man" on the outside, but the interior simply states "British Citizen"

Queen Elizabeth is indeed the head of state and holds the title "Lord of Mann"
Isle of Man is not a member of the EU, but the United Kingdom represents the Isle of Man at EU meetings. EU citizens are free to go to and from the Isle w/o issue and all citizens of the Isle can move freely within EU member states.

It should also be noted the Isle has their own Internet domain (.im)

Honestly to me it is a clear as mud. Everything seems to contradict everything else. No sense at all.

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 11-17-2013, 08:16 PM
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(11-17-2013, 08:05 PM)wingdo Wrote:
(11-17-2013, 06:53 PM)ben74 Wrote: Inspired by discussions in relation to the Isle of Man, this thread had been commenced, for anyone wishing to further discuss issues of a geographical nature.

Posts relating to technicalities regarding geography have been relocated below to prevent derailment of another thread.

As noted already, the topic for debate is geography (and not stickers)...

Isle of Man is one of the most interesting independent regions on Earth. Per Wikipedia (not the best source but the sources cited are almost all UK / IM government sites):

Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom.

Great Britain is solely responsible for defense of the Island, there is no military at all there.

Isle of Man passports say "British Islands - Isle of Man" on the outside, but the interior simply states "British Citizen"

Queen Elizabeth is indeed the head of state and holds the title "Lord of Mann"
Isle of Man is not a member of the EU, but the United Kingdom represents the Isle of Man at EU meetings. EU citizens are free to go to and from the Isle w/o issue and all citizens of the Isle can move freely within EU member states.

It should also be noted the Isle has their own Internet domain (.im)

Honestly to me it is a clear as mud. Everything seems to contradict everything else. No sense at all.

You have that right, Doug! 24

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 11-17-2013, 08:56 PM
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This is a very interesting thread! Biggrin

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 11-17-2013, 09:35 PM
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The most important thing to remember about Isle of Man is that it used to be Norwegian...

The internal and external status of the various bits and bobs that makes up the United Kingdom is downright confusing, to say the least. I'm not even sure if the people who are in charge of the UK can properly explain how all the bits hang together - but the whole thing seems to work.

I suspect the whole thing is down to history - if a medieval treaty states that Man is not part of England, they are not going to change that.

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 11-17-2013, 09:41 PM
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(11-17-2013, 09:35 PM)WegianWarrior Wrote: The most important thing to remember about Isle of Man is that it used to be Norwegian...

The internal and external status of the various bits and bobs that makes up the United Kingdom is downright confusing, to say the least. I'm not even sure if the people who are in charge of the UK can properly explain how all the bits hang together - but the whole thing seems to work.

I suspect the whole thing is down to history - if a medieval treaty states that Man is not part of England, they are not going to change that.

Nice point, Hans! Biggrin

History and politics seem to complicate many things.

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 11-17-2013, 09:54 PM
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Since they do monetary business in British Pounds I have no problem with what the sticker says.

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 11-18-2013, 01:16 PM
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Why not just put "Isle of Man"? It would be true and put the island out there. Smile

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 11-18-2013, 01:26 PM
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What exactly makes a country a country?

Are Isle of Man residents English citizens? Are they born that way?

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 11-18-2013, 01:45 PM
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Wikipedia's relevant article Wrote:A country is a region legally identified as a distinct entity in political geography. A country may be an independent sovereign state or one that is occupied by another state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign political division, or a geographic region associated with sets of previously independent or differently associated peoples with distinct political characteristics. Regardless of the physical geography, in the modern internationally accepted legal definition as defined by the League of Nations in 1937 and reaffirmed by the United Nations in 1945, a resident of a country is subject to the independent exercise of legal jurisdiction.

Wikipedia's relevant article Wrote:Citizenship in the Isle of Man is governed by British law. Passports issued by the Isle of Man Passport Office say "British Islands – Isle of Man" on the cover but the nationality status stated on the passport is simply "British Citizen". Although Manx passport holders are British citizens, because the Isle of Man is not part of the European Union, people born on the Island without a parent or grandparent either born or resident for more than five consecutive years in the United Kingdom do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the EU.

And I don't think they would take no more kindly to being called "English" than the Scots would... Wink

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 11-18-2013, 08:32 PM
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I made the post below before I comprehended that this thread is truly for geographical debate only. I apologize for it veering off topic, but I believe the information may be useful. Perhaps I should mention that I own a number of Simpsons brushes of the Ilminster, Somerset, and Mann eras including custom orders. The latest will be the P8.
_____________________

I believe this link has been posted before, but it belongs in this thread:

http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudicati...30233.aspx

It deals with the trade ruling that directed Simpsons to change its label from stating "Made in England." The complaint against the original label design was upheld--the Advertising Standards Authority ruled the label was misleading.

Their remedy was to change the label and not state that Simpson brushes are "Made in England." Simpsons has complied. The ruling did not state what the label must claim as the place of origin, simply that the suggestion that they are English-made is misleading and must change.

My opinion is that the new "Great Britain" label is more truthful. I do not believe it is wholly truthful. For example, when I send a package to Mark at the Isle of Man, the country is "British Isles," not "Great Britain." I would personally much prefer the label to state "Made in the British Isles." This is more letters, but it could be elegantly done. I hope version 3.0 of the label makes this change.

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 11-18-2013, 09:23 PM
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(11-18-2013, 08:32 PM)ntr(nwu) Wrote: My opinion is that the new "Great Britain" label is more truthful. I do not believe it is wholly truthful. For example, when I send a package to Mark at the Isle of Man, the country is "British Isles," not "Great Britain." I would personally much prefer the label to state "Made in the British Isles." This is more letters, but it could be elegantly done. I hope version 3.0 of the label makes this change.

I understand that British Isles is the proper term, but to all but the most informed "Great Britain" and "British Isles" are one in the same.

I think with Mark being told he could not use Made in England due to the move, he would have asked if Made in Great Britain was acceptable. As has been shown, much of what is what with IM is contradictory. Personally I prefer "British Isles" to "Great Britain" as I am not so sure Britain is "Great" any more. Wink

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