07-01-2014, 01:59 PM
#1
  • Teddyboy
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Does anyone know if water must be included on a shaving soap label if it is used as an ingredient?

I have noticed that some soaps do not include water on the ingredient list. Does this mean that there is no added water?

Thanks for listening.

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 07-01-2014, 02:47 PM
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According to FDA regulation, cosmetic shaving preparations require ALL ingredients to be listed (including water) and that those ingredients be specified in proper INCI terminology. That said, the FDA really has no interest in fining artisan shaving soap makers, so they generally leave it alone. It's only if you start to get really big that they start to care, I believe.

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 07-01-2014, 05:13 PM
#3
  • Teddyboy
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Thanks so much for your response, I appreciate it.

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 07-01-2014, 05:16 PM
#4
  • Agravic
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It seems to me that the EU regulators are more stringent than the US ones ... when it comes to shaving related software.

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 07-01-2014, 06:04 PM
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(07-01-2014, 05:16 PM)Agravic Wrote: It seems to me that the EU regulators are more stringent than the US ones ... when it comes to shaving related software.

Yes, WAY more stringent. You must use INCI in Europe and all soaps must be registered and have a lot numbers.

Yes, Water must be included in the ingredients if used in making the soap.

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 07-04-2014, 08:31 PM
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(07-01-2014, 06:04 PM)RazoRock_Joe Wrote: Yes, Water must be included in the ingredients if used in making the soap.

To clarify, water must be listed if it is *in* the soap, as an ingredient. Not if it is used in the process of making it but is not in it. It is the same way with foods, if it is part of the process it is not an ingredient. i.e. the nitrogen bath a pizza goes in to flash freeze it. Liquid nitrogen is not listed as an ingredient.

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 07-05-2014, 09:25 PM
#7
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The reason I posted this question is because I cannot understand how some soaps list water first, thus indicating it is the most abundant in terms of weight percent. Some place water toward the middle of the ingredients, and some leave it out altogether!

So, what's the deal with water content - can it really be "0%"? Does it tell you anything about the composition of the soap?

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 07-05-2014, 11:05 PM
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(07-05-2014, 09:25 PM)Teddyboy Wrote: The reason I posted this question is because I cannot understand how some soaps list water first, thus indicating it is the most abundant in terms of weight percent. Some place water toward the middle of the ingredients, and some leave it out altogether!

So, what's the deal with water content - can it really be "0%"? Does it tell you anything about the composition of the soap?

You can absolutely make soap without adding water. Plenty of the ingredients used are moist or already contain water. In those instances water does not need to be listed. If a soap has an abundance of say tallow, there may be no need for water. Also, some soaps like triple milled ones go out of their way to have a minimal moisture count so water would not be added there either.

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 07-06-2014, 06:27 PM
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(07-05-2014, 11:05 PM)wingdo Wrote: You can absolutely make soap without adding water. Plenty of the ingredients used are moist or already contain water. In those instances water does not need to be listed. If a soap has an abundance of say tallow, there may be no need for water. Also, some soaps like triple milled ones go out of their way to have a minimal moisture count so water would not be added there either.

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Thank you. That is basically what I wanted to know. I wonder if one were to examine the ingredients of one's favorite soap if there would be a trend toward preferring soaps with less water content.

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 07-06-2014, 07:25 PM
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(07-06-2014, 06:27 PM)Teddyboy Wrote:
(07-05-2014, 11:05 PM)wingdo Wrote: You can absolutely make soap without adding water. Plenty of the ingredients used are moist or already contain water. In those instances water does not need to be listed. If a soap has an abundance of say tallow, there may be no need for water. Also, some soaps like triple milled ones go out of their way to have a minimal moisture count so water would not be added there either.

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Thank you. That is basically what I wanted to know. I wonder if one were to examine the ingredients of one's favorite soap if there would be a trend toward preferring soaps with less water content.

Water in and of itself is not bad as an ingredient. Creams need water, some great soaps have water added. It would be interesting I suppose, but it would not change my buying habits.

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 07-07-2014, 05:33 AM
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(07-06-2014, 07:25 PM)wingdo Wrote:
(07-06-2014, 06:27 PM)Teddyboy Wrote:
(07-05-2014, 11:05 PM)wingdo Wrote: You can absolutely make soap without adding water. Plenty of the ingredients used are moist or already contain water. In those instances water does not need to be listed. If a soap has an abundance of say tallow, there may be no need for water. Also, some soaps like triple milled ones go out of their way to have a minimal moisture count so water would not be added there either.

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Thank you. That is basically what I wanted to know. I wonder if one were to examine the ingredients of one's favorite soap if there would be a trend toward preferring soaps with less water content.

Water in and of itself is not bad as an ingredient. Creams need water, some great soaps have water added. It would be interesting I suppose, but it would not change my buying habits.

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When it comes to artisan soaps, water is a necessary ingredient in order to dissolve the lye properly; without water, the mixture could explode (which it sometimes does anyway). However, in commercial production, things are different and water may indeed not be necessary.

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 07-07-2014, 07:47 AM
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Explode?! Wow! Seems like making soap is quite an exciting adventure, at times! Out of curiosity, how dramatic are the explosions? Biggrin

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 07-07-2014, 09:36 AM
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(07-07-2014, 07:47 AM)celestino Wrote: Explode?! Wow! Seems like making soap is quite an exciting adventure, at times! Out of curiosity, how dramatic are the explosions? Biggrin

As I still have a face, I wouldn't know. Biggrin

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 07-07-2014, 10:12 AM
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(07-07-2014, 05:33 AM)BarristerN_Mann Wrote: When it comes to artisan soaps, water is a necessary ingredient in order to dissolve the lye properly; without water, the mixture could explode (which it sometimes does anyway). However, in commercial production, things are different and water may indeed not be necessary.

I think you are supposed to just use Glycerin and not Nitroglycerin.

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 07-07-2014, 10:16 AM
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(07-07-2014, 10:12 AM)wingdo Wrote:
(07-07-2014, 05:33 AM)BarristerN_Mann Wrote: When it comes to artisan soaps, water is a necessary ingredient in order to dissolve the lye properly; without water, the mixture could explode (which it sometimes does anyway). However, in commercial production, things are different and water may indeed not be necessary.

I think you are supposed to just use Glycerin and not Nitroglycerin.

What happens is that the lye clumps together and superheats, causing it to react explosively with the oil and detonate. I've never seen it in person, but I've seen videos. It isn't pleasant.

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 07-07-2014, 02:25 PM
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This is tempting the kid in me to experiment with this to see what happens! Biggrin

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 07-07-2014, 04:19 PM
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Some very interesting info! Thank you all.

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 07-07-2014, 09:15 PM
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I'd like to respectfully disagree. To make soap you need fat and lye. Lye is sold in powder, crystal or pellet form and must be dissolved in water before mixing it into the melted fats. That is the water that should be listed in the ingredient label. The reason that it might be higher or lower on the ingredient list is because it reflects the relative amount compared to the other ingredients: if a soap is made up of lots of different oils, the percentage of each oil is less and the water portion might actually weigh slightly more than any one of the oils in the soap. If there are only a couple of oils in the recipe, then the water will be listed lower on the list,not because there's less water in the recipe but because the proportion has changed in relation to the amount of each oil. Also, different recipes (and personal preference) can call for varying amounts of water - making a stronger solution by using less water would place the water even lower on the ingredient list.

The only thing resembling an explosion I've ever heard of is if you add water to your lye crystals instead of the other way around but I've never done it myself (and don't recommend it).

It may be true that when commercial soap companies manufacture soap by grinding together pre-made soap noodles and scent and other additives, they don't add water - but water was used to make the soap noodles in the first place, when the coconut oil, palm oil or tallow was first saponified.

(07-06-2014, 06:27 PM)Teddyboy Wrote: I wonder if one were to examine the ingredients of one's favorite soap if there would be a trend toward preferring soaps with less water content.
I hope not because it could be misleading. Most artisan shaving soap is hot processed anyway so a lot of the water is cooked out by the time the soap is ready to mold. And more evaporates during
the curing process.

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 07-08-2014, 04:46 AM
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(07-07-2014, 09:15 PM)Mystic Water Wrote: The only thing resembling an explosion I've ever heard of is if you add water to your lye crystals instead of the other way around but I've never done it myself (and don't recommend it).

The reaction is basically the same, from what I understand. When water is added to lye, the lye clumps together and superheats, causing it to eventually detonate from internal temperature. From what I have seen (again, thankfully never in person), adding lye crystals to straight melted fat will have roughly the same effect.

(07-07-2014, 09:15 PM)Mystic Water Wrote: It may be true that when commercial soap companies manufacture soap by grinding together pre-made soap noodles and scent and other additives, they don't add water - but water was used to make the soap noodles in the first place, when the coconut oil, palm oil or tallow was first saponified.

Oh definitely the case. My point is that, in commercial soap production using noodles, INCI no longer necessarily requires that water be listed as an ingredient, though many manufacturers list it anyway so as not to take any chances. I would never claim that water is completely unnecessary to the process; apologies if that's what I implied.

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