05-17-2012, 09:19 PM
#1
  • Teiste
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  • Salt Lake City,UT
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After my conversation last night with the Henkel ladies (Henkel is the german company behind La Toja) and my discovery that current La Toja is not a vegetal based soap,but contains animal fat , this thread came to my mind : Potassium Sterate as a key ingredient and also the thought that many supposedly veggie based soaps arent that veggie after all.

First what are Potassium and Sodium Stetare?

Potassium Stearate (soap made with Stearic Acid and Potassium Hydroxide)
Sodium stearate (soap made with Stearic Acid and Sodium Hydroxide)


and what is Stearic Acid ?

According to Wikipedia Stearic Acid is :

Quote:Stearic acid (first syllable pronounced either steer or stair) is the saturated fatty acid with an 18 carbon chain and has the IUPAC name octadecanoic acid. It is a waxy solid, and its chemical formula is CH3(CH2)16CO2H. Its name comes from the Greek word στέαρ "stéar", which means tallow. The salts and esters of stearic acid are called stearates. Stearic acid is one of the most common saturated fatty acids found nature following palmitic acid[2].


We can even read that the Greek word "stear",means tallow...

According to the Terry SL guys (the company behind Dr Selby shaving soap) the Stearic Acid that this soap contains comes from tallow,so Dr Selby is not a veggie based soap,but contains animal fat on it.

We do think that many current shaving soaps are veggie based and it seems that otherwise seems to be the truth : many contains animal fat on them (tallow),which arises my next question, have been all reformulations been that bad after removing Potassium and Sodium Tallowate ingredients or are we pretty much "fanaticals" when it comes to have tallow on our soaps seems we do think that performs better?

As I have said befor,I dont beleive in magical ingredients,but good formulations,and many shaving soaps,with tallow or not,have good formulations.However I think that we have become pretty much "purist" and some even fanatical when it comes to tallow on shaving soaps.

I have tried old shaving soaps glories like Old Spice,Yardley,Gibbs N53 stick and,while they provided excellent,creamy lather they're not much different than current soaps like Martin de Candre or the Geo F. Trumper shaving soaps (of course,Im talking about the ones that are capable of making/forming lather,not the infamous 'dud' ones).I find that soaps that contains Potassium and Sodium Sterate works as well as the ones with Potassium and Sodium Tallowate and much better than the ones with only Palm Oil.

Its funny because Im writing this while I just asked Lascaray and La Toja to add Tallow on their shaving sticks,but Im afraid that is more like getting the right formulation/ingredients that add tallow and thats it.

Well,after all this rambling I just want to say that many shaving soaps that we consider veggie based,could not be that veggie/after all,and more animal fat based than we think of.Plenty of brands comes to mind now and I will stop calling the french soaps veggie based ones,since many contains Stearic Acid and Potassium and Sodium Sterate and Im sure now that comes from animal ingredients,unless is stated otherwise,but I have never read that,.to be honest.Well thats not true,in the Spanish Fig and Nugmet shaving soap puck,we can read this :

[Image: P1220717.jpg]

Luxury Vegetable Based

But the soap contains Potassium and Sodium Sterate :

[Image: P1220715.jpg]

And it lather its really creamy and thick,like a tallow based soap.Would it be all this "going animal friendly" UK shaving soap reformulations,just simple and pure marketing to keep some animal lovers quiet since the soaps seems that still contains aninal fat ingredients on them?

Time to go to bed,too much rambling to say that many shaving soaps that we think are veggie oil/fat based,truly aren't.And thats all.

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 05-17-2012, 09:27 PM
#2
  • Tonality
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I remember looking into this ingredient before and that it can be derived from either animal or plant sources. CosmeticInfo.org states "Scientific facts:
The commercial stearic acid from which the Stearate salts are manufactured is actually a mixture of monocarboxylic acids obtained from animal and/or vegetable sources."

So these "going animal friendly" reformulations could just be using these potassium/sodium stearate from plant sources now.

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 05-17-2012, 09:35 PM
#3
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I think it's important to distinguish between "contains" and "based".

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 05-17-2012, 09:39 PM
#4
  • Teiste
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(05-17-2012, 09:27 PM)Tonality Wrote: I remember looking into this ingredient before and that it can be derived from either animal or plant sources. CosmeticInfo.org states "Scientific facts:
The commercial stearic acid from which the Stearate salts are manufactured is actually a mixture of monocarboxylic acids obtained from animal and/or vegetable sources."

So these "going animal friendly" reformulations could just be using these potassium/sodium stearate from plant sources now.

Yes,it could be too.Thanks for the info.

(05-17-2012, 09:35 PM)CyanideMetal Wrote: I think it's important to distinguish between "contains" and "based".

Could you please further explain that?

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 05-17-2012, 09:53 PM
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(05-17-2012, 09:39 PM)Teiste Wrote:
(05-17-2012, 09:27 PM)Tonality Wrote: I remember looking into this ingredient before and that it can be derived from either animal or plant sources. CosmeticInfo.org states "Scientific facts:
The commercial stearic acid from which the Stearate salts are manufactured is actually a mixture of monocarboxylic acids obtained from animal and/or vegetable sources."

So these "going animal friendly" reformulations could just be using these potassium/sodium stearate from plant sources now.

Yes,it could be too.Thanks for the info.

(05-17-2012, 09:35 PM)CyanideMetal Wrote: I think it's important to distinguish between "contains" and "based".

Could you please further explain that?

I was thinking that if a soap is vegie based yet contains stearic acid from tallow, then it would still be a vegie soap because it's primary and main ingredient is vegie derived.

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 05-17-2012, 09:57 PM
#6
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Stearic acid is made from stearins. This is isolated from palm and animal fats by fractionation. Palm has more unsaturated C18's but this can be changed by hydrogenation during refining. All this giberish just means that stearic acid can be processed from both sources. They would be chemically identical.

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 05-19-2012, 10:00 AM
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So would a better classification instead of tallow or veggie be to say:
tallow or non-tallow
T or No-T
tallow or tallowless

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 05-19-2012, 12:20 PM
#8
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maybe animal free?

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 05-20-2012, 09:31 PM
#9
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(05-17-2012, 09:57 PM)SteelTown Wrote: Stearic acid is made from stearins. This is isolated from palm and animal fats by fractionation. Palm has more unsaturated C18's but this can be changed by hydrogenation during refining. All this giberish just means that stearic acid can be processed from both sources. They would be chemically identical.

This thread reminds me of Lorenzo's Oil; I saw unsaturated C18 and was waiting for Nick Nolte to go off on a rant.

You're correct, chemically they can extract it from any source animal, plant or human for that matter as long as its still the same chain of acid.

There was somewhere I don't recall maybe even wiki, that went through and discussed the chemical compounds and how they related to the ingredients and why they're used in soap making.

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 05-20-2012, 09:42 PM
#10
  • TexBilly
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Teiste, good thoughts. To address your example, Bath House Spanish Fig is a fine soap either in support of or in spite of the animal- based ingredients. Love it.

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 05-20-2012, 09:45 PM
#11
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Lorenzo's Oil. I still remember Nick Nolte's terrible accent in that movie.

Stearates are made from cocunut, palm and tallow. The only way to tell is if it is labeled, what factory made it or you know where the raw materials were sourced, ie Malaysia (palm) , US (tallow) etc

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 05-20-2012, 10:25 PM
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(05-20-2012, 09:45 PM)SteelTown Wrote: Lorenzo's Oil. I still remember Nick Nolte's terrible accent in that movie.

Stearates are made from cocunut, palm and tallow. The only way to tell is if it is labeled, what factory made it or you know where the raw materials were sourced, ie Malaysia (palm) , US (tallow) etc

Haha, you're not a chemist are you?

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