06-05-2015, 01:04 PM
#1
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I'm going to try and gather up Picture, Video or at minimum written proof of confirmed Handle and Knot makers.  There is a lot of debate on who makes this or do they import them, so we'll see how far we can get.

We'll leave the custom handle makers out of it, as we know they make them by hand and made to order.  Guys like Doug Korn, Rudy Vey, ShaverJoe, WolfWhiskers and many others, all make their own handles and prove it with every custom order.

HANDLES:
DaVinci - 
Edwin Jagger - https://www.theenglishshavingcompany.com...ushes.html
Kent - 
Morris & Forndran -
Paladin - http://shavenook.com/thread-coming-soon-...#pid533737
Plisson - 
Rooney - 
Savile Row (Shavemac) - http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread....ost6919195
Semogue - 
Shavemac - http://shavenook.com/thread-anyone-use-s...#pid543446
Simpsons - Confirmed by Bullgoose below
Thater - Outsourced to their specs (see knot article)
The Varlet - http://shavenook.com/thread-the-varlet-a...ving-brush
Vie Long - Confirmed by Bullgoose below
Wiborg - 


KNOTS:
DaVinci - "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVOpLmlJ6Es"
Edwin Jagger - https://www.theenglishshavingcompany.com...ushes.html
Kent - 
Morris & Forndran -
Paladin - 
Plisson -
Rooney -
Savile Row (Shavemac) - http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread....ost6919195
Semogue - "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSy1h4NRTzw"
Shavemac - http://shavenook.com/thread-anyone-use-s...#pid543446
Simpsons - "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vH3zx1a9R4"
Thater - http://www.straightrazormagazine.com/201...t.html?m=1
The Varlet - http://shavenook.com/thread-the-varlet-a...ving-brush
Vie Long - confirmed with Juan / Dr Dulcamara / BSB brushes
Wiborg - 

If you know of any others or have pics, videos or links to back up they are Made in house, please post and I'll update this list.  Hopefully I'm not the only one interested in this.

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 06-05-2015, 01:21 PM
#2
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Semogue "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSy1h4NRTzw"

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 06-05-2015, 01:24 PM
#3
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(06-05-2015, 01:21 PM)NSmalls Wrote: Semogue "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSy1h4NRTzw"

Awesome.  I updated the above post for knots but wasn't sure about the handles.

Maybe I'm weird, but I love watching these videos and proof of the makers work.

Thanks.

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 06-05-2015, 01:24 PM
#4
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Great thread, Bruce !!!!!!!

Number_one

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 06-05-2015, 01:40 PM
#5
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Bruce,


Very interesting your thread and shows who are the players of these market !!!




Idea



Lorenzo.

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 06-05-2015, 01:46 PM
#6
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I'm 99% sure Simpson, VieLong and Plisson turn their own handles but can't find documented proof.

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 06-05-2015, 02:22 PM
#7
  • bullgoose
  • The Enabler
  • Redondo Beach, California, U.S.A
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(06-05-2015, 01:46 PM)Bruce Wrote: I'm 99% sure Simpson, VieLong and Plisson turn their own handles but can't find documented proof.

Simpson and Vie-Long do...not sure about Plisson

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 06-05-2015, 02:23 PM
#8
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(06-05-2015, 02:22 PM)bullgoose Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 01:46 PM)Bruce Wrote: I'm 99% sure Simpson, VieLong and Plisson turn their own handles but can't find documented proof.

Simpson and Vie-Long do...not sure about Plisson
Is Vie-Long a confirmed knot maker too? I know you have worked with both makers directly on LE brushes, so I'll update the initial post accordingly

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 06-05-2015, 02:30 PM
#9
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Here's a link to an article by straight razor magazine in which they visit Thater's workshop and discuss their methods of knot making: http://www.straightrazormagazine.com/201...eo-at.html. Just knots though...they buy their handles. 

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 06-05-2015, 02:30 PM
#10
  • refles
  • Senior Member
  • New York
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(06-05-2015, 02:23 PM)Bruce Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 02:22 PM)bullgoose Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 01:46 PM)Bruce Wrote: I'm 99% sure Simpson, VieLong and Plisson turn their own handles but can't find documented proof.

Simpson and Vie-Long do...not sure about Plisson
Is Vie-Long a confirmed knot maker too? I know you have worked with both makers directly on LE brushes, so I'll update the initial post accordingly

With communication from Dr Dulcamara (Juan) regarding his BSB brush project, Vie-Long hand makes the knots for him, so I believe this is the norm to probably the mid-high end range of their brushes, like their LE's.

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 06-05-2015, 02:39 PM
#11
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(06-05-2015, 02:30 PM)shevek Wrote: Here's a link to an article by straight razor magazine in which they visit Thater's workshop and discuss their methods of knot making: http://www.straightrazormagazine.com/201...eo-at.html. Just knots though...they buy their handles. 
Thanks .

That's awesome proof, directly from the source.

Much appreciated for posting it.

(06-05-2015, 02:30 PM)refles Wrote: With communication from Dr Dulcamara (Juan) regarding his BSB brush project, Vie-Long hand makes the knots for him, so I believe this is the norm to probably the mid-high end range of their brushes, like their LE's.


Thanks a bunch.

I have updated the list with that confirmation. If we get pictorial or written proof from makers, we can always update it. But when another maker, artisan or vendor who has worked directly with the company in question can back up the claim, I'll take that as proof.

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 06-05-2015, 03:25 PM
#12
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(06-05-2015, 02:30 PM)shevek Wrote: Here's a link to an article by straight razor magazine in which they visit Thater's workshop and discuss their methods of knot making: http://www.straightrazormagazine.com/201...eo-at.html. Just knots though...they buy their handles. 

Which makes me guesstimate Shavemac makes the handles for them  Biggrin

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 06-05-2015, 03:25 PM
#13
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Something to keep in mind is that it's often harder to prove a negative than it is to prove a positive.

The fact a photo of someone making something hasn't been found doesn't mean he never made it.

And the fact a photo of someone making something has been found doesn't mean he did any more than was captured on that particular occasion.

There has been a lot of speculation on the boards about who makes and who doesn't make what. An individual's professed belief that someone has made something can give rise to a broader belief that the someone in question actually claimed to have made what he was assumed to have made.

For what it's worth, I've read many posts describing handles that Lee Sabini was presumed to have made. I've never once heard Lee claim to have personally turned a handle. Maybe he has; maybe he hasn't. I really don't know. He does, however, know some things about lathes. We often discuss handle-making in fairly technical detail. He clearly knows enough to get what he wants, and he is highly discriminating with regard to quality of results. 

Lee has told me, and I believe, that he chanced to purchase the Rooney company from an aging Mrs. Rooney. (Sometime thereafter, other investors were brought in. I believe Lee maintains both some interest and involvement. I do not, however, know to what degree that is the case.)

Lee has also told me that he owns several CNC lathes. I confidently believe the M&F Group Buy Chiefs were turned on either his or Rooney's machines. I never asked Lee whether he actually made those handles himself. I've come to assume (based largely on inference) that a close associate of Lee's turned them. That gentleman, an engineer by Lee's description, has a name, but I'll leave out mentioning it here. I hope someday to meet him. The more I've learned about turning handles on CNC lathes, the more I've come to respect and admire the mastery required to produce the M&F Group Buy handles. It doesn't matter to me at all that Lee might not have turned them himself. I've never represented to anyone that he did, or cared whether he did for that matter. What I cared about were the results and the provenance. There is not and never has been any doubt in my mind that those handles were turned in England by a perfectionist with a keen appreciation of subtleties.

Incidentally, I own a bunch of Simpson handles, including several produced since Vulfix acquired ownership of the Simpson brand, and I've never assumed that Mark personally turned any of them, or that any of them was turned by hand. And I'd be surprised if anyone buys Simpson brushes based on an assumption that Mark turned them by hand. That would be a little silly. Mark oversees a factory and employees, with reference to which he often expresses well-founded pride and appreciation.

Just hypothetically, how much difference would it really make if an old, master knot-maker of Vulfix-Simpson retired but continued to do piece-work on a contract basis? Would the fact she was no longer formally employed by Simpson make a difference to anyone lucky enough to score a brush containing a knot she made? It wouldn't to me.

I believe Lee has tied knots. I suspect he's even acquired some mastery. But I doubt he's as good at tying knots as some women he knows who have been doing it for about as long as he's been alive. Given a choice, I would rather have them tie my knots than him. But I might rather have him set them. That's where I think he has truly attained a unique mastery.

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 06-05-2015, 03:33 PM
#14
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That all makes sense Ken and my thread is more to satisfy my curiosity and see if others know where some of these items come from or who is making for who....as in the Shavemac and Savile Row scenario.

I've own handles that were Hand turned and CNC turned as well as Hand tied knots and machine turned knots and noticed little to no difference in quality. Heck, I don't even know how most of my current brushes are made or put together.

As you said, even with video or picture proof, it doesn't guarantee anything. Especially with many of these companies making low end $ to high end $$$ brushes and the process may be different amongst lines. If nothing else, I want to satisfy my own curiosity. In the Simpson example, I don't believe anyone expects Mark is a hands on worker in terms of turning or tying. But he has shown us multiple videos showing his skillful works making the knots, sorting, tying, gluing etc.

Thank you for sharing your experience with Lee as well as the group buy brush info, it's very interesting stuff. And there would be absolutely nothing wrong and is nothing wrong with brush makers having handles made for them to their specifications. It appears Theater does this as well, according to the SRD article....and we all know, Thater makes a wonderful brush.

A lot of this started to intrigue me when the Wiborg discussion was going on. I sent an email to Wiborg and got no reply to my question. I sent a follow up that also got ignored. The question was warranted in my mind as they make some claims on their site and I was hoping to get a response.

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 06-05-2015, 04:04 PM
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(06-05-2015, 03:25 PM)CHSeifert Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 02:30 PM)shevek Wrote: Here's a link to an article by straight razor magazine in which they visit Thater's workshop and discuss their methods of knot making: http://www.straightrazormagazine.com/201...eo-at.html. Just knots though...they buy their handles. 

Which makes me guesstimate Shavemac makes the handles for them  Biggrin
If so, that is three well regarded brush lines that Shavemac is supplying handles for...Shavemac of course, Savile Row and Thater.

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 06-05-2015, 04:15 PM
#16
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(06-05-2015, 03:33 PM)Bruce Wrote: That all makes sense Ken and my thread is more to satisfy my curiosity and see if others know where some of these items come from or who is making for who....as in the Shavemac and Savile Row scenario.

I've own handles that were Hand turned and CNC turned as well as Hand tied knots and machine turned knots and noticed little to no difference in quality.  Heck, I don't even know how most of my current brushes are made or put together.

As you said, even with video or picture proof, it doesn't guarantee anything.  Especially with many of these companies making low end $ to high end $$$ brushes and the process may be different amongst lines.  If nothing else, I want to satisfy my own curiosity.  In the Simpson example, I don't believe anyone expects Mark is a hands on worker in terms of turning or tying.  But he has shown us multiple videos showing his skillful works making the knots, sorting, tying, gluing etc.

Thank you for sharing your experience with Lee as well as the group buy brush info, it's very interesting stuff.  And there would be absolutely nothing wrong and is nothing wrong with brush makers having handles made for them to their specifications.  It appears Theater does this as well, according to the SRD article....and we all know, Thater makes a wonderful brush.

A lot of this started to intrigue me when the Wiborg discussion was going on.  I sent an email to Wiborg and got no reply to my question.  I sent a follow up that also got ignored.  The question was warranted in my mind as they make some claims on their site and I was hoping to get a response.

It didn't make all that much sense to me. I posted it prematurely while I was trying to edit it. Angry

I think this is a great topic. My reply wasn't intended as counter-argument, just relevant perspective.

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 06-05-2015, 04:23 PM
#17
  • Agravic
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Well said, Ken.

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 06-05-2015, 04:40 PM
#18
  • refles
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What's created here will definitely have long lasting impact as it will undoubtedly turn up on internet searches for the wet shavers to be, along with being a current reference chart for the existing practitioners like ourselves. This is a wonderful idea, but still some of this stuff can be subjective or even speculative as Ken writes but its a great launch off point for those who have no clue, that's the way I see it.

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 06-05-2015, 06:00 PM
#19
  • Andrew
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I think the best evidence is a forum member visiting the premises of a brush maker and documenting the visit with photos and anecdotes.


Andrew

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 06-05-2015, 06:09 PM
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(06-05-2015, 06:00 PM)Andrew Wrote: I think the best evidence is a forum member visiting the premises of a brush maker and documenting the visit with photos and anecdotes.


Andrew
That's what I'd love to see more of too but even the company addressing questions surrounding certain aspects of their process would suffice.

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