12-14-2015, 08:44 PM
#1
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I have seen a lot of talk about hooked tips on badger brushes and how they make for a softer face feel. If that's the case, why do the care instructions for my Thater say to avoid hot water temperatures above 122 degrees which will cause the tips to curl? That sounds like it's not good on the hair. However, I don't doubt that they are softer when curled because there is no longer a pointy tip to poke the skin. Also, how does this affect loading and lathering soaps?

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 12-14-2015, 09:38 PM
#2
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Many people believe that some batches of hair become damaged during the cleaning processing. I may be wrong but sometimes, I think some hair gets bleached and this causes the ends of the hair to become curly at the ends. It can be hit or miss with find a consistent vendor or type of badger hair that will always gel up after being used, aka broken in.

I used a 3 bad HMW today with gel tips and it was fantastic. I could literally facelather all day without the risk of brush burn. That is the benefit to me.

Here is a tgn hmw 3 band over head shot of them knot after its been test lathered and cleaned out.

[Image: T0Sck07.jpg]

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 12-14-2015, 10:10 PM
#3
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(12-14-2015, 09:38 PM)zaclikestoshave Wrote: Many people believe that some batches of hair become damaged during the cleaning processing. I may be wrong but sometimes, I think some hair gets bleached and this causes the ends of the hair to become curly at the ends. It can be hit or miss with find a consistent vendor or type of badger hair that will always gel up after being used, aka broken in.

I used a 3 bad HMW today with gel tips and it was fantastic. I could literally facelather all day without the risk of brush burn. That is the benefit to me.

Here is a tgn hmw 3 band over head shot of them knot after its been test lathered and cleaned out.

[Image: T0Sck07.jpg]

Thanks for explaining it. I just tested my new Thater, and the tips are as soft as my synthetics but a nicer face feel, not like any brush I've used. I can't imagine any softer.

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 12-15-2015, 05:24 AM
#4
  • RobinK
  • I like things that work.
  • Munich, Germany
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"Hooked tips" are actually trichoptilosis, ie the splitting or fraying of the hair-shaft due to excessive heat and mechanical stress. You do not want that. Ever.

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 12-15-2015, 05:52 AM
#5
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I love using brushes with hooked tips, the best of the best in my collection have hooked tips and a honeycomb clumping structure. Hooked tips may have lower tensile strength, but lets look at the positives.

Not one of my hooked tipped brushes have shed or broken from the shaft. They seem to exhibit a gel like face feel, where as the non hooked feel like a wet mop (not bad at all but just not as gel like in feel).

I definitely prefer hooked tips, my top end M&F, Shavemac and Paladins exhibit this feature. On the last Shavemac I purchased I asked Bernd for a specific hair type, as I found they differ. From my other post (shavemac thread) you can see the extent of hooking amongst the tips and without a doubt its the best brush I own.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

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 12-15-2015, 06:29 AM
#6
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I have experienced one brush with gel tips that the tips were actually split and fraying.  I didn't know this was possible with badger hair, and it is my understanding that this was likely caused by too long a dip in a bleach bath.  However, the brushes with gel-tips that I have held on to are just curled and exhibit no fraying or splitting.
I enjoy gel-tipped brushes, and find them to work just as efficiently to pick up soap and build lather as a non-gel-tipped brushes, they just have the added bonus of an extremely soft face feel. 
Try one out if you can.

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 12-15-2015, 06:54 AM
#7
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What's funny is when some Thater brushes showed hooked tips there was hella outcry about how they were defective. I got pretty heated. Now it seems to be a desirable trait. How times change

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 12-15-2015, 07:11 AM
#8
  • Shanman
  • Reserve Collection Squirrel Hair
  • NE Florida
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(12-15-2015, 06:54 AM)SteelTown Wrote: What's funny is when some Thater brushes showed hooked tips there was hella outcry about how they were defective. I got pretty heated. Now it seems to be a desirable trait. How times change

I remember that thread!

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 12-15-2015, 07:33 AM
#9
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This is all good feedback. Thank you. I will just enjoy my brush as is and if the tips happen to hook that's fine too I guess.

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 12-15-2015, 07:55 AM
#10
  • RobinK
  • I like things that work.
  • Munich, Germany
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Actually no, that is not fine. It means you will have damaged the hair. The entire concept of a "gel like feel" created by broken tips is nonsense. What sets a very small number of brushes made in Europe apart are their uncut tips. Because the idea is to use fine tips to drive the suds into the hair follicles. Split hairs, or broken tips, cannot do that. Never mind the feel, brushes with broken tips are not only defective, they actually lack performance. 

Oh, and I remember that thread, too, and it was a fine example of a complete disconnect between first hand knowledge and rumours in forums. 

You see, if the manufacturer tells me how to treat a brush in order to avoid damage, I would do exactly that. Any sane person, in my opinion, would do that. Because someone who has successfully been making brushes for decades knows. 

Just because the proverbial Someone On The Internet says that "hooked tips are good" does not mean that they are. They are a sign of misuse, and limited performance. Stick to what is written in the manual, and you will be fine, and your brush will deliver top performance for decades.

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 12-15-2015, 08:10 AM
#11
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(12-15-2015, 07:55 AM)RobinK Wrote: Actually no, that is not fine. It means you have damaged the hair. Each time I have to read this "gel like feel" nonsense, I get the strong urge to pass that  person a very big box of clueons . Because the idea is to use fine tips to drive the suds into the hair follicles. Split hairs cannot do that. Never mind the feel, these damaged brushes lack performance. 

Oh, and I remember that thread, too, and it was a fine example of a complete disconnect between knowledge and forums. 

You see, if the manufacturer (from Latin "made by hand", not "glued together Chinese import knots and wood") tells you how to treat the brush in order to avoid damage, any sane person would do that. Because someone who has successfully been making brushes for decades knows. And because someone who's been hoarding brushes for months doesn't - "gel like feel" and all that.

But... then there are forums.

I'm sure not going to abuse my brush and will never use hot water especially. I just meant if it happens I will hopefully enjoy using it still. I'm following all instructions to a tee as this is my first and only silvertip and I want it to last. The tips already are incredibly soft and I can't imagine softer.

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 12-15-2015, 08:24 AM
#12
  • Giorgio
  • Senior Member
  • Pennsylvania, US
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Damaged or defective, "right" or "wrong," I like brushes with hooked tips. They feel good on my face and make my shaves more enjoyable --and at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.

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 12-15-2015, 08:28 AM
#13
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So, if some people enjoy the feel of hooked/curled tips, what's the problem?

Edit: my post is in response to the long post regarding "mistreated" badger hair.

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 12-15-2015, 08:40 AM
#14
  • kwsher
  • Senior Member
  • Austin, TX - USA
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(12-15-2015, 08:28 AM)TAB Wrote: So, if some people enjoy the feel of hooked/curled tips, what's the problem?

Edit: my post is in response to the long post regarding "mistreated" badger hair.
I would also add that if by using circular motion [Thater warns against] etc. would in fact "damage' the brush then I would be down to roughly one brush- the Shavemac I received week before last. All the rest would likely be unusable.

Particularly the Rooney silvertip that was my first over 11 years ago. Still going strong by the way.

Common sense and good judgment will no doubt prevail.

Enjoy that new brush in great health Hobbyist and remember- it's not made of porcelain. Gentle but not coddling Smile

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 12-15-2015, 08:48 AM
#15
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My Paladin came with mostly hooked tips and when wet there was a gel-like look and feeling on the tips. That feeling and hooking slowly faded away (10-12 uses) and now it seems to be stabilized at a -tip clumping when wet and reduced gel feeling- stage . IME lathering was a bit more "difficult" when more gel-like look and feeling was present with soaps like MW of MWF. Now it lathers just fine as jelly tips have faded away (no shedding or anything).
FWIW, I don't use hot water at all, face lather only, treat my brushes with care and love how the brush performs.

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 12-15-2015, 08:49 AM
#16
  • RobinK
  • I like things that work.
  • Munich, Germany
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You see, I ride an Indian SUV. It came with a very thick manual. I read that. I could have blissfully ignored it, because certain, shall we say more robust, SUVs can withstand less careful treatment. Or do not have €12,000 leather upholstery. 

And this is what can happen if you choose to ignore the fine manual that comes with your brush. I am not making this up, this was sent in by a customer. So read the manual, and do not listen to what people on the internet tell you. The manufacturer knows better.

[Image: ThaeterMassacre_02.jpg]

[Image: ThaeterMassacre_01.jpg]

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 12-15-2015, 08:59 AM
#17
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(12-15-2015, 08:24 AM)Giorgio Wrote: Damaged or defective, "right" or "wrong," I like brushes with hooked tips. They feel good on my face and make my shaves more enjoyable --and at the end of the day, that's what matters to me.

+1  I have been enjoying my 'damaged' M&F 3XL Heritage brush for over 3 years, now and it hasn't lost a single hair in all of that time. Sure feels great on my face! Biggrin

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 12-15-2015, 09:07 AM
#18
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(12-15-2015, 07:55 AM)RobinK Wrote: The entire concept of a "gel like feel" created by broken tips is nonsense...

I'd have to disagree with this statement Robin.  Hooked tips, whether or not you prefer them, in fact, do have a distinct feeling on the face compared to non-gel tipped brushes. The tips of the hair are one of the primary factors that determine face feel. Change the tips and you change the feel.
On a side note, I am amazed that you read your SUV's owners manual, that has got to be one dull read!

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 12-15-2015, 09:27 AM
#19
  • RobinK
  • I like things that work.
  • Munich, Germany
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(12-15-2015, 09:07 AM)merkur man Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 07:55 AM)RobinK Wrote: The entire concept of a "gel like feel" created by broken tips is nonsense. What sets a very small number of brushes made in Europe apart are their uncut tips. Because the idea is to use fine tips to drive the suds into the hair follicles. Split hairs, or broken tips, cannot do that. Never mind the feel, brushes with broken tips are not only defective, they actually lack performance.

I'd have to disagree with this statement Robin.  Hooked tips, whether or not you prefer them, in fact, do have a distinct feeling on the face compared to non-gel tipped brushes. The tips of the hair are one of the primary factors that determine face feel. Change the tips and you change the feel.
Thank you, Nathan, I have added the missing parts of my text, and highlighted the misunderstanding. Split hairs are broken, and prone to further damage. Encouraging users here to ignore what the manufacturer says is borderline negligent. And yes, you lose performance if you let the super fine tips break. 
(12-15-2015, 09:07 AM)merkur man Wrote: On a side note, I am amazed that you read your SUV's owners manual, that has got to be one dull read!
Since I actually use my SUV off-road, it was required reading. The Terrain Response 2 Auto is great, but you should understand what it can and cannot do. Bit like a silvertip shaving brush, only different Wink

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 12-15-2015, 10:08 AM
#20
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(12-15-2015, 09:27 AM)RobinK Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 09:07 AM)merkur man Wrote:
(12-15-2015, 07:55 AM)RobinK Wrote: The entire concept of a "gel like feel" created by broken tips is nonsense. What sets a very small number of brushes made in Europe apart are their uncut tips. Because the idea is to use fine tips to drive the suds into the hair follicles. Split hairs, or broken tips, cannot do that. Never mind the feel, brushes with broken tips are not only defective, they actually lack performance.

I'd have to disagree with this statement Robin.  Hooked tips, whether or not you prefer them, in fact, do have a distinct feeling on the face compared to non-gel tipped brushes. The tips of the hair are one of the primary factors that determine face feel. Change the tips and you change the feel.
Thank you, Nathan, I have added the missing parts of my text, and highlighted the misunderstanding. Split hairs are broken, and prone to further damage. Encouraging users here to ignore what the manufacturer says is borderline negligent. And yes, you lose performance if you let the super fine tips break. 

(12-15-2015, 09:07 AM)merkur man Wrote: On a side note, I am amazed that you read your SUV's owners manual, that has got to be one dull read!
Since I actually use my SUV off-road, it was required reading. The Terrain Response 2 Auto is great, but you should understand what it can and cannot do. Bit like a silvertip shaving brush, only different Wink
No issue taken with your perception of what is damaged and what is not, just the notion that the phenomenon itself is nonsense, since clearly the different tips will produce a different face feel.  That's all.
Also, those Land Rovers are really nice!  I grew up a short distance from Utah's Slick Rock Trail and had had all sorts of fun out there with old Land Cruisers and Ford Broncos.  Hope you're enjoying that Land Rover!

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