01-20-2016, 02:47 PM
#1
  • Mel S Meles
  • On the edge, ouch
  • 44.4899° south of the North Pole
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One has a (formerly) gorgeous real marble handled shaving brush with a clapped-out boar knot in it.  It has sat on a shelf lo, these many years, because two decades ago it shed so many bristles that it had been rendered useless; its daily function was replaced, back then, with a Vulfix 2234S Super Badger brush, which slogs on dutifully to this day.

The very attractive prices for new generation knots has caused me to look into giving the marble handle a new life.  

Here is the problem:  I do not have a “handle” (sorry) on how I should measure to determine the size of the knot that I should buy.  I have a caliper, and placing it touching the nickel ring through which the bristles emerge from the handle, and closing its gap to where it just touches the remaining boar bristles but does not actually squeeze them, the existing boar knot appears to have a diameter of 20 mm — which, coincidentally, is very close to the same diameter that I measure, with the same technique, for the knot in my L'Occitaine Plisson synthetic brush.  

First, is the way I am measuring the way that I should be measuring?

Second, assuming that the bore for the boar (sorry again) is 20 mm, is the usual practice to find a replacement knot of exactly the same diameter; or does one buy a knot a smidge smaller to allow for epoxy thickness; or does one buy a knot a smidge larger and try to shoehorn it into the bore so that there is a strong mechanical connection that the epoxy simply reinforces?

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 01-20-2016, 05:32 PM
#2
  • SRNewb
  • Senior Member
  • No. Va, USA
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General rule of thumb is 1 to 2mm smaller than the hole in the handle. Knots are sold usually by the diameter of the base. Most of them have a glue bump above that which is larger than the actual knot diameter listed. You need a knot in which the glue bump will clear that opening as far deep as you want to bury the knot in the handle. Or you can bore out the handle when you get the knot. Would be difficult to do with a nickel ring, IMO.
For a 20mm hole, I'd go with an 18mm knot. Again, MHO. But you need to remove the old knot and measure the hole, not the knot.

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 01-20-2016, 05:49 PM
#3
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Sounds like SRnewb got Ya covered! If you don't want to risk removing it there are plenty of artisans that can do everything you need. Just give them a shout!

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 01-20-2016, 06:21 PM
#4
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I think Mike has the right concept.  This is why when you buy, for example, a brush listed as 24mm, the diameter of the knot at the top of the handle is 1-2mm larger.

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 01-20-2016, 07:29 PM
#5
  • Mel S Meles
  • On the edge, ouch
  • 44.4899° south of the North Pole
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(01-20-2016, 05:32 PM)SRNewb Wrote: General rule of thumb is 1 to 2mm smaller than the hole in the handle. Knots are sold usually by the diameter of the base. Most of them have a glue bump above that which is larger than the actual knot diameter listed. You need a knot in which the glue bump will clear that opening as far deep as you want to bury the knot in the handle. Or you can bore out the handle when you get the knot. Would be difficult to do with a nickel ring, IMO.
For a 20mm hole, I'd go with an 18mm knot. Again, MHO. But you need to remove the old knot and measure the hole, not the knot.

I never have removed a knot from a handle; what is the normal way, the standard procedure, to do it without ruining the handle one hopes to reuse?

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 01-20-2016, 07:37 PM
#6
  • Mel S Meles
  • On the edge, ouch
  • 44.4899° south of the North Pole
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(01-20-2016, 05:49 PM)FreddieP318ti Wrote: . . . there are plenty of artisans that can do everything you need. Just give them a shout!

Reading up on knots, I was leaning toward an Ubersoft II/Envy knot; assuming that was the way I wanted to go, where would I find one of these artisans that can do everything I need?  I am wandering outside of my customary database here.

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 01-20-2016, 07:47 PM
#7
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I would check out the Artisan corner. Message and speak with some of the brush makers such as Doug Korn, MHWood, and a few others and see what they can do or can recommend. Here's a link for you. 

http://shavenook.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=49

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 01-20-2016, 07:55 PM
#8
  • SRNewb
  • Senior Member
  • No. Va, USA
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 01-20-2016, 08:20 PM
#9
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Good luck with the restoration! Thumbsup

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 01-20-2016, 11:28 PM
#10
  • SRNewb
  • Senior Member
  • No. Va, USA
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If you decide to do it yourself, the best advice I can give is go slow, and be careful. If you look at the two restore threads I linked, you will see that you can use a variety of tools to remove the knot.
There are also brush maker and restorer sub forums on two other forums that are filled with information, but I don't know if I'm allowed to link to them.
Basically, you use whatever means  you can. Lots of guys use dremels, etc. I use a drill, drill bits, forstner bits, chisels,  etc., because I know what I am doing with them, as I use them often in instrument building. But I've even seen guys cut the knot flush with the handle, and pull the hairs out with a pair of pliers. Primitive, but it worked for them.
Whatever works for you.

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 01-21-2016, 09:20 AM
#11
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Don't forget the before, during and after pictures.  Then, you can teach us.

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 01-21-2016, 11:56 AM
#12
  • Mel S Meles
  • On the edge, ouch
  • 44.4899° south of the North Pole
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(01-20-2016, 07:55 PM)SRNewb Wrote: Here is a restore thread of mine.

http://shavenook.com/showthread.php?tid=28618

And one a bit different.

http://shavenook.com/showthread.php?tid=28991

Thank you for those links; I looked at them within minutes of your posting, but other business has kept me from thanking you until now.  

You used a bunch of tools (primarily drill attachments) that I lack.  I had assumed that all I would need is the right solvent (perhaps acetone — nail polish remover?) and a pair of pliers to yank the remaining boar bristles out of the handle; the idea of playing dentist Shok gives me some trepidation.  Fortunately, there is no deadline, and I can go at my own pace, first in deciding whether I am up to the demands of the job, and then (if I answer the first in the affirmative) in proceeding with a deliberation that ranks “get it right” over “oh boy, oh boy."

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 01-21-2016, 12:06 PM
#13
  • Mel S Meles
  • On the edge, ouch
  • 44.4899° south of the North Pole
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(01-21-2016, 09:20 AM)Mr_Houston Wrote: Don't forget the before, during and after pictures.  Then, you can teach us.

The “before” picture I could do right now, or, more realistically, when I can set up the tripod for a picture.  Our friends Celestino and merkur man have set a high standard for brush and lather porn photos here, and — while my photos will not play in that league — I would not want the shabbiness of the lighting and background to intrude on the content. 

I cannot be certain that there will be any “during” or “after” photos yet.   Smile

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 01-21-2016, 12:10 PM
#14
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Nice...SRNEWB thank you for the links..I learning how to get better at searching

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 01-21-2016, 12:21 PM
#15
  • Mr_Smartepants
  • Senior Member
  • Cambridgeshire, UK (CONUS post address)
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Rod Neep gave an excellent description (with pictures!) of matching knots to handles and accurately measuring the 'hole size'.
http://www.theshavingroom.co.uk/communit...ost-380419

One option is to send your handle to Bernd at ShaveMac, who will deftly remove the old knot, recondition the handle (if needed), then custom make a knot to fit the handle perfectly.
This is what he did with my two wood handles and the fit/finish is exemplary.

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 01-21-2016, 12:30 PM
#16
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(01-21-2016, 12:21 PM)Mr_Smartepants Wrote: One option is to send your handle to Bernd at ShaveMac, who will deftly remove the old knot, recondition the handle (if needed), then custom make a knot to fit the handle perfectly.
This is what he did with my two wood handles and the fit/finish is exemplary.

Can you give a ball park number for this level of service?

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 01-21-2016, 12:45 PM
#17
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(01-21-2016, 12:30 PM)amaro5211 Wrote:
(01-21-2016, 12:21 PM)Mr_Smartepants Wrote: One option is to send your handle to Bernd at ShaveMac, who will deftly remove the old knot, recondition the handle (if needed), then custom make a knot to fit the handle perfectly.
This is what he did with my two wood handles and the fit/finish is exemplary.

Can you give a ball park number for this level of service?

If you go on the Shavemac website you can see the prices of bare knots, based on hair type and diameter.  What I don't know is the cost of restoring your brush and installing the new knot into a Shavemac handle.

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 01-21-2016, 01:24 PM
#18
  • Mr_Smartepants
  • Senior Member
  • Cambridgeshire, UK (CONUS post address)
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(01-21-2016, 12:30 PM)amaro5211 Wrote:
(01-21-2016, 12:21 PM)Mr_Smartepants Wrote: One option is to send your handle to Bernd at ShaveMac, who will deftly remove the old knot, recondition the handle (if needed), then custom make a knot to fit the handle perfectly.
This is what he did with my two wood handles and the fit/finish is exemplary.

Can you give a ball park number for this level of service?

Bernd charges about 10 Euro for the service.  https://www.shavemac.com/repair.html
He'll advise you on the approximate target knot size, then go to the knot selection page and let him know what you want.  Prices are all there.
https://www.shavemac.com/products/Expert...ELECT.html

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 01-21-2016, 02:15 PM
#19
  • SRNewb
  • Senior Member
  • No. Va, USA
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(01-21-2016, 11:56 AM)Mel S Meles Wrote:
(01-20-2016, 07:55 PM)SRNewb Wrote: Here is a restore thread of mine.

http://shavenook.com/showthread.php?tid=28618

And one a bit different.

http://shavenook.com/showthread.php?tid=28991

Thank you for those links; I looked at them within minutes of your posting, but other business has kept me from thanking you until now.  

You used a bunch of tools (primarily drill attachments) that I lack.  I had assumed that all I would need is the right solvent (perhaps acetone — nail polish remover?) and a pair of pliers to yank the remaining boar bristles out of the handle; the idea of playing dentist Shok gives me some trepidation.  Fortunately, there is no deadline, and I can go at my own pace, first in deciding whether I am up to the demands of the job, and then (if I answer the first in the affirmative) in proceeding with a deliberation that ranks “get it right” over “oh boy, oh boy."
I'm not certain there is a solvent for cured epoxy, but I doubt acetone would touch it. And anything that might could probably damage resin, acetate and other handles. Yours I do not know. But you can use a dremel tool, or anything else you have that you think would help the extraction. By the way, I sent you a PM.

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 01-22-2016, 09:21 PM
#20
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(01-20-2016, 07:37 PM)Mel S Meles Wrote:
(01-20-2016, 05:49 PM)FreddieP318ti Wrote: . . . there are plenty of artisans that can do everything you need. Just give them a shout!

Reading up on knots, I was leaning toward an Ubersoft II/Envy knot; assuming that was the way I wanted to go, where would I find one of these artisans that can do everything I need?  I am wandering outside of my customary database here.

I would send a message to Nathan Clark and discuss having you ship the handle to him and he would install one of his knots of your choosing.

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