03-13-2016, 09:25 AM
#1
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Some time ago there was a post titled "Advice on honing a Wade and Butcher" . The razor showed quite a bit of hone wear and had been bread knifed.
 Now this tale is a bit of  "what ever happened to,,," as well as "what's the rest of the story".  Turns out i got the razor to play with and determine just what the story,, and truth really was as to what could make this razor live again.

 Now there were requests such as " we need a picture to determine what's up..."    " Massive hone wear,,, bevel looks straight .."  ( it wasn't,,, look at the pictures)
The general advice of  " add a layer of tape ( because of all the hone wear) and try setting the bevel" ,,,, to one suggestion that was " you've taken so much meat off the spine,,,,the geometry was altered,,,, it needs 3 layers of tape"

I suggested, and posted 3 examples of razors showing spine wear but gave great shaves that what was needed was not tape on the spine,,, but possibly MORE spine wear considering all other factors present in the razor in question.

 So ,, do we follow the advice where majority rules?
 
Well it turns out that yes,, tape was needed,,,, but NOT on the spine. The edge should have been taped. The spine needed more honewear as I suspected.
Looking at the spine you can see more wear at either end of the razor. Turns out both the tip and the area nearest the shaft were quite thick compared to the middle of the spine. This was not the result of "rolling X's" as suggested. The spine had an hour glass shape. It could have been honed regardless but the spine still needed to have more metal removed.
Why do I say this?
 Because the angle,,,, as the razor sat,,, was 20.17 degrees.
Adding just ONE layer of tape to the spine would have resulted in an angle of nearly 22 degrees ( 21.96 to be exact)
Had the advice of adding 3 layers of tape because of " all the metal removed" would have given an angle of over 24 degrees!  Now mid teens was determined to be the "sweet spot" and anything at 20,,, just over was at the limit.
24 qualifies as well beyond the limit. Adding 3 layers would have been a horrendous mistake.
 What I first did was remove metal from the tip of the spine. and then on the opposite side removed metal from the base of the spine.
 Doing this straightened out the bevel along the entire edge. This being off the way it was is what created the uneven bevel.
Removing more metal from the spine naturally thinned it and I thinned it a bit more.
 Just this alone which required relatively little work or metal removal ( yes,, it was worth the effort to do this) resulted in a bevel which was now at a respectable 17.5 degrees.
 Along the way I also reintroduced the smile to the blade which gave me a uniform width and eliminated the possibility, ( though it wouldn't matter one bit ) of having a bevel which was thin along the ends and thicker in the middle.
  I didn't break the razor down. Just worked on it as it is. Now it shaves beautifully. 
Thank heavens I didn't add tape.

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 03-13-2016, 09:33 AM
#2
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(03-13-2016, 09:25 AM)mycarver Wrote: I[Image: QdbgNwe.jpg][Image: yp8gc43.jpg][Image: E3rrrL4.jpg]Some time ago there was a post titled "Advice on honing a Wade and Butcher" . The razor showed quite a bit of hone wear and had been bread knifed.
 Now this tale is a bit of  "what ever happened to,,," as well as "what's the rest of the story".  Turns out i got the razor to play with and determine just what the story,, and truth really was as to what could make this razor live again.

 Now there were requests such as " we need a picture to determine what's up..."    " Massive hone wear,,, bevel looks straight .."  ( it wasn't,,, look at the pictures)
The general advice of  " add a layer of tape ( because of all the hone wear) and try setting the bevel" ,,,, to one suggestion that was " you've taken so much meat off the spine,,,,the geometry was altered,,,, it needs 3 layers of tape"

I suggested, and posted 3 examples of razors showing spine wear but gave great shaves that what was needed was not tape on the spine,,, but possibly MORE spine wear considering all other factors present in the razor in question.

 So ,, do we follow the advice where majority rules?
 
Well it turns out that yes,, tape was needed,,,, but NOT on the spine. The edge should have been taped. The spine needed more honewear as I suspected.
Looking at the spine you can see more wear at either end of the razor. Turns out both the tip and the area nearest the shaft were quite thick compared to the middle of the spine. This was not the result of "rolling X's" as suggested. The spine had an hour glass shape. It could have been honed regardless but the spine still needed to have more metal removed.
Why do I say this?
 Because the angle,,,, as the razor sat,,, was 20.17 degrees.
Adding just ONE layer of tape to the spine would have resulted in an angle of nearly 22 degrees ( 21.96 to be exact)
Had the advice of adding 3 layers of tape because of " all the metal removed" would have given an angle of over 24 degrees!  Now mid teens was determined to be the "sweet spot" and anything at 20,,, just over was at the limit.
24 qualifies as well beyond the limit.
 What I first did was remove metal from the tip of the spine. and then on the opposite side removed metal from the base of the spine.
 Doing this straightened out the bevel along the entire edge. This being off the way it was is what created the uneven bevel.
Removing more metal from the spine naturally thinned it and I thinned it a bit more.
 Just this alone which required relatively little work or metal removal ( yes,, it was worth the effort to do this) resulted in a bevel which was now at a respectable 17.5 degrees.
 Along the way I also reintroduced the smile to the blade which gave me a uniform width and eliminated the possibility, ( though it wouldn't matter one bit ) of having a bevel which was thin along the ends and thicker in the middle.
  I didn't break the razor down. Just worked on it as it is. Now it shaves beautifully. 
Thank heavens I didn't add tape.
The top 2 photos are the revised razor and the 3rd is the original condition.

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 03-13-2016, 09:58 AM
#3
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[Image: 94ROm43.jpg]Here is a scale drawing of what would be a 8/8 razor . The bevel angle is 15.8.

Now let's pretend a newbie finds it and gets it cheap because of a chip in the blade. 
He'll be told " no problem , you can breadknifed it,,,,it'll still be a nice size blade" 
So it's breadknifed and its now 7/8 . Same width spine but narrower width. Just a 20% reduction gives a new angle of 21 degrees. 
But since it was in nice shape save for the chip he's instructed to prevent spine wear and keep it looking like new to tape the spine . So our newbie does and increases the angle to near 22 degrees. 
He reposts looking for answers because the shave isn't smooth and posts photos so everyone can "see" what's going on . Well all sorts of bevel setting tricks are suggested and low and behold someone says " that bevel is too wide ( which it naturally would as the blade gets narrower) and should be thinner like it was from the factory. ADD MORE TAPE to make a thinner bevel he is told. 
" I must be doing something wrong as the bevel is nice and thin but it doesn't shave well at all". " my honing skills are no good"
No kidding,,, the bevel is in the mid 20 range!
But nobody says " remove the tape" but suggests more bevel setting,,,, you should use XYZ stone with a sharpie....
"Oh if people only learned how to use tape when honing ,,,"
The answer is more hone wear to "correct" the geometry of the razor.

Or,,, tape the edge when you hone it!

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 03-13-2016, 10:15 AM
#4
  • BobH
  • Senior Member
  • Thunder Bay Canada
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Yea, always pays to check the spine width and blade width especially when someone has bread knifed the smile out of the blade in the first place. That is a fair bit of height lost in the middle of the blade as opposed to the ends. Nice job checking it all out and correcting the faults. Definitely one messed up blade when you received it.

Bob

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 03-13-2016, 10:16 AM
#5
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Personally looking at the above razor I would throw it in the bin, it's in such a sorry state it's simply not worth putting in any money or effort into restoring or honing that razor. As your original drawing shows the razor started off as a 8/8 with a 15.8 degrees angle and centering 7.9 degrees through the center of the edge apex removing 1/8 from the original edge as basically destroyed the razors geometry and even someone at  quite a good level of honing skills would struggle to correct such an edge.

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 03-13-2016, 10:28 AM
#6
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Thanks Bob. 
As to the fictional razor,,, wouldn't take much effort at all as I just demonstrated on the real razor. Where on that one an obviously large amount was removed but taping the spine was suggested to fix it.
But yes,the angles are 15.9 and 21 I just placed the arcs incorrectly where they should have read 7.95 and 10.5 as they are drawn.
The point remains adding 1,2 or 3 layers of tape is a mistake in this case or when it's suggested to make a thinner bevel.

And what it also shows that over the life of a razor, if it's constantly taped to prevent hone wear, the bevel will be increased. And considering what happened with the original razor not much reduction in width and the addition of tape can alter an angle pretty quickly.

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 03-17-2016, 05:38 AM
#7
  • Doc226
  • edge snob (and proud of it)
  • Smallest State
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As Mark has said, most razors do not need tape and if fact would benefit form not being taped.

3 layers of tape is usually a recipe for disaster IMO, angle too high and the tape compresses.

This subject is always being discussed and in the grand scheme of things it rarely matters.

I tape my wedge (easier to hone)
Framebacks (spine could be softer than the edge steel)
Customs (the maker usually tapes them)
Gold was on spine (would look weird)

In the normal wear of a razor needing just touch up for upkeep I doubt the angle would change in 1 lifetime unless you drop down to the 1K every time (not needed most of the time)

I have honed many NOS razors and the hone wear imparted with the initial honing is not noticeable.

When honing out a chip you often hear folks say to tape the spine and then remove the tape and re-set the bevel-this would most likely be the instance where the angle would change.  You would be imparting several years worth of honing on the edge and not much on the spine.

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 03-17-2016, 06:18 AM
#8
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Nice post. I never tape spines except for full wedges. If you buy a chipped razor you will just have to come to grips with the fact that you will put hone wear on the spine to get the chip out. The few razors I have tried that were honed with a lot of tape to keep the aesthetic never shaved as well for me. YMMV as always

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