09-23-2016, 06:44 PM
#1
  • kav
  • Banned
  • east of the sun,west of the moon
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My query on milled soaps was very educational. Now honestly; how many of us weren't quite sure of the answer? So, Instead of discretely using this deux ex machina of resources I again pose another question on a subject. When I started out Badgers came in these scritchy all black affairs with no clear industry wide name. Then I learned about Silvertips being the high grade brush of knowing shavers. Then two band entered  and in my ignorance thought it refered to two turnings on the handle as some physical indicator for the illiterate in Empire Britannia. Then I had that intellectual breakthrough like the hominid playing with a femur in 2001.Oh, it's the black and silver pelage of the hair. Thus Sprach Zarathustra. Now I'm struggling with three band and the local badger has lost all friendly disposition to my close observations even with gifts of free range chicken eggs. Please educate us all.
Open the internet HAL....................HAL, open the internet.  I'm sorry Kav, my parental controls state you've been uploading hi definition photos of shaving brushes on their sides. Hal, open up the #$*@# internet. Looks around for a large femur.

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 09-23-2016, 07:09 PM
#2
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2 band and 3 band can be the same sometimes and have differences. The problem is when you look at a brush, it can be deceiving to see the colors of bands that are showing and then know 100% what the brush is. A 3 band silver tip knot in a bulb shape can look sometimes like a 2 band brush. 

If you compare a single hair that is 2 band, visually, that middle color band of hair should be more distinctively dark and/or wide. The full length of a badger hair will have 3 colors or 3 tiers of color. Example, white tips, black middle band, and below will have a transition in color which isn't as dark. The width of the hair is likely to be thicker. 

The 3 band hairs have lighter colors and in my experience, they are usually not whiter. They tend to be tipped with colors ranging from tan, peach, yellow, off white. The middle band may be a shade of brown, but usually in my experience, it will have variation in the color. Never really a solid brown color as much as a 2 band has a darker middle or bottom band. The bottom band is usually a bit less bright or light than the top. SO you may find the top band is off white, middle band is brownish, and bottom third band is tannish. The individual thickness of the hair is thinner and the tip should be softer side by side with an untreated 2 band hair.

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 09-23-2016, 07:26 PM
#3
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Context is a good thing here as well. Almost all "silvertip" brushes have three bands, but that doesn't automatically make them a 'three band' brush.

A brush sold as a three band brush is usually similar to a two band brush, having thicker hairs, the wide middle band, and is usually denser, or at the least, well stuffed. It could be argued that a three band is just a two band with longer hair, and not set as deeply.

It's been a while since I looked specifically for three band badger, so it's possible no one makes a true "three band knot" anymore.

It's important to remember that there is no regulation of the grades, and most manufacturers call knots what they want. Gary Young (of Simpson's) always insisted that there were only three different hair grades, and Two-Band knots were just Finest hair that had been through a process called 'capping,' in which a ring of darker hairs was tied around the knot to give it the distinctive Two-Band appearance.

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 09-23-2016, 08:03 PM
#4
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I don't know what the original source of this is nor its accuracy, but I think it is illustrative. 

[Image: xeDCAmU.jpg]

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 09-23-2016, 08:22 PM
#5
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The original source was Teiste, and it's accuracy is limited. Back hair is considered too wispy for use in shaving brushes. Most of the hair used in brushes comes from the ruff or mane (shoulder area) of the badger.

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 09-23-2016, 09:59 PM
#6
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Thanks for the info   Badger

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 09-24-2016, 04:04 AM
#7
  • ischiapp
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  • Ischia, Naples, Italy
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Before different side of the cloak, main different is about species of the animal.
European Badger give 3-band, with thinner hair and more flexible
Asian Badger give 2-band, with stronger hair and more backbone
It depends the different habitat, so different hair to protect the animal body.

Each brand, selecting hair, can do different loft with same raw material.
And, being organic material, different batches are different in performances. The more or the less.

Info:
http://shavenook.com/showthread.php?tid=5535&pid=88960#pid88960
http://www.shaving101.com/index.php/educ...ushes.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_badger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hog_badger
WetShavingProducts.com - Budger Brush Hair Grades
WetShavingProducts.com Wrote:Badger Brush Hair Grades
The list is separated into two separate hierarchies representing the hierarchy of badger hair per species of badger used. Yes, there are two different species of badger that are used to make shaving brushes.

HMW Special Grade
[Image: xPptjri.jpg]  
High Mountain White Special Grade
Can High Mountain White get even better? We think so. Starting with the already exceptionally fine and luxurious hairs of the High Mountain badgers of Northern China, we hand pick the finest hairs one at a time to create this special grade of hair. This better grade of hair exemplifies the qualities that make High Mountain White so special.
This special grade is characterized as a more intense version of the High Mountain White hair. The hair is a little more resilient and the tips can only be described as luxurious. Due to the intense labor associated with hand picking each individual hair and the extreme rarity, this special grade comes with a premium price.
Due to the extreme rarity and labor involved, this hair is only featured in limited edition brushes and knots.
Compare to: Vintage Plisson HMW & current Large Plisson HMW knots, Vintage Simpson Manchurian

High Mountain White
[Image: JRIBlmk.jpg]
High Muntain White
After searching high and low across the whole of Northern China talking to the badger hair dealers, we’ve finally located the source. Composed of extremely rare hair from the badgers found in the high mountains of China, High Mountain White badger hair is the creme de la creme of badger hair. Characterized by long white tips and a thick middle band, High Mountain White is as good as it gets.
High Mountain White is best described as pure luxury. The tips of each hair is very soft and silky, yet each hair is quite resilient. Almost as resilient as SuperFine 2 Band hair from the Manchurian Badger (Arctonyx collaris). High Mountain White simply exudes pure, unadulterated luxury.
Compare to: Current Plisson HMW

Premium Silvertip
[Image: a47Mp8E.jpg]
Premium Silvertip
Our silvertip hair consists of the best hair from the back and neck area of the Eurasian badger. Even though our previous silvertip hair was top notch, we weren’t satisfied and went back to the pelt dealers to find us even better hair. This is the result. Luxuriously soft, it is a must have in your shave den.
Not quite as luxuriously soft as our Super Silvertip, our silvertip grade is of exceptional quality and softness. Truly the equal of any high end competitor. Featuring long white tips and a deeply rich black band, you need to treat yourself to this luxurious hair.
The feel of Premium Silvertip is similar to a cloud on your face. It is an extremely soft hair. Compared to High Mountain White or SuperFine Badger, Premium Silvertip does not have much backbone and is not known for having any scrub. Often described as “pillow-y soft.”
Compare to: Simpson Super Badger, Rooney Silvertip, Shavemac D01 3 band, TGN HMW, Thater Silvertip

Standard Silvertip
[Image: tIZS394.jpg]
Standard Silvertip
Our Silvertip Badger is the lowest grade of silvertip hair. Not as pillowy soft as Premium Silvertip, regular silvertip is still very soft and provides for a good compromise between softness and price.
Face feel is not as soft as the higher grades of silvertip hair and can exhibit some slight scritch. It is significantly softer than grey badger or best badger. Compared to black badger or pure badger, silvertip hair is like lathering with a cloud.
Compare to: Kent Silvertip, TGN premium silvertip, most other grades of silvertip. Very standardized grade.

Grey Badger
[Image: DdshiYy.jpg]
Grey Badger
Our Grey Badger is a fantastic hair grade for veterans and newcomers alike. The banding is not as distinct and the tips are greyer in color. The hair is sourced from larger areas of the badger, including the stomach and sides. Grey Badger hair holds a good amount of water and features very soft tips.
Our Grey Badger hair is soft on the skin with a firm backbone and a little scritch. Grey Badger has been described as having excellent flow through, with super soft tips, and just a hint of the right scritch. It has been compared to Shavemac’s Finest Badger Hair. Our Grey Badger offers a good compromise between the lower grade black badger hair and Super Silvertip.

Pure Badger
[Image: LUYnJbd.jpg]
Pure Badge
Pure badger is the most readily available badger hair on the badger. It still features a colored band in the center, but the contrast is not as noticeable. Due to its high availability, pure badger is a very cost effective choice.
The hairs are coarser and thicker than finest and best badger. The hairs do not hold as much water as the finer grades of badger hair and will feel scratchier on the skin.
The coarse nature of the badger hair makes it an ideal candidate for soaps and face lathering. The thick nature of the bristles means brushes made out of this hair have a lot more backbone.
Face feel of pure badger is mostly soft, but is interspersed with noticeable scratch. Good for those looking for an exfoliating brush or want to experience a more flexible hair knot compared to boar or black badger.

Mixed Badger
[Image: VjUW3r1.jpg]
Mixed Badger
Mixed badger is the lowest grade of badger hair available. Made from the leftover badger hairs, mixed badger represents the bottom of the totem pole of badger hair. Only found in the most economical of brushes, we do not offer brushes made out of this grade of hair. You can find an example of mixed badger here.
Mixed badger is a mix between the species. It’s basically the castoffs. Very low quality hair. Found in the cheapest badger brushes. You would be wise to avoid it.
Compare to: Escali & Tweezerman.

Two Banded Badger Hair Grades
Two band badger hair is actually from a different species of badger. Arctonyx collaris. Available after the reintegration of China into the global economy, this hair features more backbone than the three banded grades.

Two Banded HMW Special Grade
[Image: bXunX3n.jpg]
Two Band HMG Special Grade
In the same fashion as the special grade of three banded HMW, these hairs are hand sorted and picked out from the Two Banded High Mountain White hairs. Picked for their softness and aesthetic qualities, these are the best of the best. This special grade of hair has been previously called Rooney Finest and can be found in Somerset era Simpson brushes.
Unlike the aforementioned grades of hair, we’ve used additional processes to remove the scratch, poke, or scrub commonly associated with hair of this grade. The transformation is nothing short of amazing. The feel of the hair is phenomenal. I can only describe it as being caressed and massaged by soft hands.
Due to the extreme rarity and labor involved, this hair is only featured in limited edition brushes and knots.
Compare to: Rooney Finest, some Vintage Simpson 2 banded badger brushes

Two Banded High Mountain White
[Image: qJtjaes.jpg]
Two Band High Mountain Grade
Two Banded High Mountain White hair derives from a different badger species that also lives high in the mountains of rural China. Hard to find and extremely rare, their hairs are finer and whiter than their brethren who dwell closer to sea level.
Characterized by whiter and longer tips with a distinctly thick black band, HMW 2 band is luxurious to the touch and finer than our SuperFine grade of hair. Closer in feel to regular three banded HMW, HMW 2 band is a must have for any fan of High Mountain White.
Compare to: Simpson 2 band, Thater 2 band

SuperFine Badger 2 Band
[Image: ECE6cko.jpg]
Two Band SuperFine Badger
The Manchurian Badger (Arctonyx collaris) is a distinct species from the Eurasian badger (Meles meles) used in our silvertip brushes. The hair is longer and thicker. It still features the same three banded appearance, but the middle dark band is much wider, allowing for a two banded look.
Our SuperFine Badger 2 Band grade of hair consists of the softest and longest regular production hair from the Manchurian badger. The tips of the hairs are extremely soft and considered gel-like by some, but features a thicker shaft and more backbone. Some people even say it is softer than silvertip. Fairly close in feel tip feel to High Mountain White, SuperFine is best described as a soft hair with a lot of backbone. Other words commonly used to describe the feel are slightly exfoliating, just enough scrub, or resilient.

Finest Two-Band
[Image: rbpAhpf.jpg]
Two Band Finest
Our Finest Badger hair is a special two banded grade of badger hair from the Manchurian Badger. It has a visually distinct two banded appearance instead of the normal three bands. Our Two Band Finest is a small step down in quality from our 2 band Super Badger. Still featuring mostly gel-like tips, our Finest hair has just a tad more scritch.
Not to be confused with the low grade Manchurian badger hair other sellers offer. Our finest badger is perfect for those seeking a visually distinct badger brush with soft tips and a lot of backbone. We currently have no plans on introducing lower grades of 2 band hair.
The feel of this hair is best characterized as being resilient. Lots of backbone can be felt. Individual hairs are thicker than our SuperFine badger hair leading to more scrub, resiliency, and feedback. The tips are very soft and feels similar to SuperFine. The defining characteristic is the very strong backbone of the hairs. Great for those looking for an exfoliating, but super soft lathering experience.
Compare to: TGN SuperFine

Fine Badger
[Image: QcdNsoT.jpg]
Fine Badger
Comprised of the thickest three banded hairs from the hog badger, our Fine badger hair is characterized by a slightly firmer feel.
A step down from our Finest Badger grade of hair, these hairs are thicker and stronger. The tips are not as soft, but the overall feel is very similar to our Finest Badger grade of hair.
Compare to: TGN Finest

Black Badger
[Image: tdvcGwl.jpg]
Black Badger
Black badger features the same quality of hair as our pure badger, but features only the darkest badger hair. Featuring only dark black badger hair, our black badger brushes represent a great option for a new wet shaver or those on a budget.
While many will deride black badger as being the second lowest grade of badger hair, black badger is actually quite soft on the skin. Just like pure badger. Pure badger features slightly more backbone than pure as the hairs are slightly thicker. Black badger comes from the Manchurian Badger.
The face feel of black badger is actually quite soft. Similar to unbroken in boar, black badger feels very similar to pure badger, but with more backbone.

Special Grade: Manchurian Mountain Badger
[Image: sjgNokk.jpg]
Manchurian Mountain Grade
We have searched the mountains and lowlands of China for over a year trying to locate the source of the fabled Manchurian badger. At long last, we’ve finally found the correct hair. We’re calling it Manchurian Mountain Badger because it’s not quite the same as Simpson’s Manchurian, but it is as close as we are able to get due to different processing methods by the hair dressers.
Characterized by a very firm backbone and tips on the scrubby side, this hair is extremely hard to come by. The knot feel is very firm with scrubby, but soft tips. This grade of hair is missing most of the prickle/tickle/harshness that Simpson’s Manchurian has. Hence, it’s not 100% the same.

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 09-24-2016, 04:32 AM
#8
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To my knowledge, all badger hair has three bands naturally.  The variables are the width of each band and the thickness of the individual hairs.  The hair used to produce two band hair is thicker and has a wider dark middle band and thus at the lofts we all seem to enjoy our brushes to be set at only two of the three bands is visible.  The higher the loft the more of that third band becomes visible with two band hair. Traditional three band hair has a comparably thin dark middle band.

Three band:
[Image: JJJzW0K.jpg]

Two Band:
[Image: zEwnl8E.jpg]

Two band masquerading as three band:
[Image: q4wxcA6.jpg]

[Image: FwkTapP.jpg]

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 09-24-2016, 05:45 AM
#9
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Here is the short explanation:

All badger brush hairs have 3 bands.

The 2 band just have the longer thicker blacker mid band, which means the lower 3.rd band actually is hidden inside the knot, where the knot is attached to the handle with the glue.

You can actually often see the lower third band in some 2-band brushes.

2-band hair is thicker than 3-band hair, because it comes from badgers, that live higher up in the mountans, and thus needs the thicker hair to protect them from the colder weather.

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 09-24-2016, 05:51 AM
#10
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 09-24-2016, 05:54 AM
#11
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I think Nathan and Claus summarized it well in posts no. 8 and 9.  With regard to different species of badger and what part of the badger's body each grade comes from, I don't really know.  There seems to be a lack of reliable information regarding many aspects of badger hair.

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 09-24-2016, 08:47 AM
#12
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(09-23-2016, 06:44 PM)kav Wrote: Open the internet HAL....................HAL, open the internet.  I'm sorry Kav, my parental controls state you've been uploading hi definition photos of shaving brushes on their sides. Hal, open up the #$*@# internet. Looks around for a large femur.

Okay, you got me with this one, kav.  Laughing1

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 09-24-2016, 08:53 AM
#13
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wow, i thought the skinned badger was Rocky from Bullwinkle fame.  What would he do without Rocky.  Probably my favorite show as a kid.

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 09-24-2016, 12:20 PM
#14
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(09-24-2016, 08:53 AM)daveinsweethome Wrote: wow, i thought the skinned badger was Rocky from Bullwinkle fame.  What would he do without Rocky.  Probably my favorite show as a kid.


"Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of hat!"


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 09-24-2016, 12:21 PM
#15
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(09-24-2016, 08:53 AM)daveinsweethome Wrote: wow, i thought the skinned badger was Rocky from Bullwinkle fame.  What would he do without Rocky.  Probably my favorite show as a kid.


And, let us not forget Mr Peabody and his wayback machine.


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 09-24-2016, 04:54 PM
#16
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great stuff.  Rocky and Bullwinkle was like Mel Brooks with a political message thrown in.   Mr. Peabody and Sherman wasn't it?  much more layered than the Hanna Barbera stuff.  Just watched Mel Brooks original The Producers with my wife.  she had not seen it.  hilarious.  need more of that these days.

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 09-24-2016, 05:51 PM
#17
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(09-24-2016, 04:54 PM)daveinsweethome Wrote: great stuff.  Rocky and Bullwinkle was like Mel Brooks with a political message thrown in.   Mr. Peabody and Sherman wasn't it?  much more layered than the Hanna Barbera stuff.  Just watched Mel Brooks original The Producers with my wife.  she had not seen it.  hilarious.  need more of that these days.


Yup. Sherman . Wasn't Boris Badinov and his wife Natasha part of this too? Or was that a different series?


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 09-24-2016, 06:45 PM
#18
  • kav
  • Banned
  • east of the sun,west of the moon
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Natasha Fatal's marital relationship with Boris was never established. Yes, tghey wer rocky and bullwinkles antagonists. Dudley Doright and Fractured Fairytales were also part of the series.

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 09-25-2016, 11:33 AM
#19
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(09-24-2016, 06:45 PM)kav Wrote: Natasha Fatal's marital relationship with Boris was never established. Yes, tghey wer rocky and bullwinkles antagonists. Dudley Doright and Fractured Fairytales were also part of the series.


Wow. Good memory. Now you've got me humming the little FF theme.


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 09-25-2016, 04:11 PM
#20
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(09-24-2016, 05:51 PM)Joucas Wrote:
(09-24-2016, 04:54 PM)daveinsweethome Wrote: Yup.  Sherman .  Wasn't Boris Badinov and his wife Natasha part of this too?  Or was that a different series?

Ah yes, one of the best lines in all cartoondom: "Kill moose and squirrel."
Less known was the second line: "If you see badger, kill him too. I need new brush."

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