09-28-2017, 08:51 PM
#1
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Can I set a 26 or 28mm knot in a 30mm handle?  Pros/cons of doing this?

TIA

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 09-28-2017, 08:58 PM
#2
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I set a 28mm Synthetic knot in a 30mm handle before. It worked just fine for that. I think it depends what knot you are setting. Many are oversized, and actually require the bore to be a bit wider than advertised measurement. How deep is the hole in the handle? What know? Have you used calipers to measure the knot above the plug?

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 09-29-2017, 05:02 AM
#3
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(09-28-2017, 08:51 PM)22bulldog Wrote: Can I set a 26 or 28mm knot in a 30mm handle?  Pros/cons of doing this?

TIA

There's no hard and fast rule.  Some knots (e.g., Shavemacs) need a socket 1-1.5mm larger than the nominal knot size.  Others need one equal to it.  As mentioned before, the best solution is to measure the knot at its widest point and go from there.  

Without actually examining the knot and handle, it's tough  to say with certainty; but as a rule, setting a knot smaller than the socket diameter (e.g., setting a nominal 26mm knot in a 29-30mm socket) results in a less dense brush than would have been the case if it were set in the recommended socket size.  That might work if you're looking for a softer face feel, but I really wouldn't recommend it.

If you'll send me a PM, I'll be happy to go into the matter further.

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 09-29-2017, 06:44 AM
#4
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It can also depend on where the hair is glued into the base. Knots made with longer hair that is glued in the lower light-colored band will often have a larger compressed diameter above the base where the middle, darker band begins. Also, glue above the base (i.e., into the hair and not visible) can be a factor.

We've had knots with bases that measured <24.5 mm in diameter not fit above the base into handles with 26 mm sockets.

I certainly wouldn't install a knot with a 26 mm base in a handle with a 30 mm socket. Depending on the knot's construction and your personal preferences with regard to density, 28 mm could either be perfect or a bit small.

Keep in mind that overall knot height and depth-of-set can also factor in optimizing a match.

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 09-30-2017, 07:37 PM
#5
  • chazt
  • Senior Member
  • Bayside, NY
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Great thread. The wet shaving community reminds me in a way of the Grateful Dead and their fans. One wouldn't be without the other one (no pun intended).

We're fortunate that the combined wisdom of the artisans is so freely shared.

Thank you, all.

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 10-01-2017, 04:25 AM
#6
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(09-28-2017, 08:51 PM)22bulldog Wrote: Can I set a 26 or 28mm knot in a 30mm handle?  Pros/cons of doing this?

TIA

Depends on the knot. Some knots require a quite larger hole than their nominal diameter. I have some knots that actually need a hole that is 2-4 mm larger than the knot's nominal diameter.
Most knots require a 1-2 mm larger hole. So, in short the answer is a clear maybe....

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 10-01-2017, 07:19 AM
#7
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[Warning: Lots of photos. Best not to include photos in replies.]

Sometimes a picture a thousand words.

Shown below are two knots, I'll refer to them as A and B here, both nominally sized for handles with 26 mm sockets.  Knot A was specified to have a base diameter of 25 mm with an overall height of 64. It's base measures about 25 mm, and it's overall height as delivered (before we sanded a little off the bottom to rough it up) was about 64.5 mm. Knot B was specified to have a base diameter of 25 mm with an overall height of 67 mm. It's base measures about 24.7 mm, and it's overall height as delivered was about 70 mm.

Note that knot B has more light-colored hair showing above the glue base than knot knot A. Not surprisingly, although knot B's base has a slightly smaller diameter, it fits more snugly into a 26 mm socket than knot A, which has very little light-colored hair visible above its base. Again, I've had knots with bases measuring under 25 mm that were too large to insert more than 1-2 mm past (above) the base in 26 mm sockets. When that happens, it can be a function of either hair density and/or glue dispersion within the hair above the visible circumference of the base. 

Knot A:

[Image: 26SNL2_zpscta2vc6s.jpg]

Knot B: 

[Image: 26SLE5_zpsfvsuoihh.jpg]

Knot B inserted into 26 mm sizing collar:

[Image: 26SLE5_in_Collar_Bottom_zpsvazefngb.jpg]

Knot A set at 49 mm:

[Image: 26SNL249_zpsjbjot0jj.jpg]

Knot A set at 50 mm:

[Image: 26SNL250_zpsfqirzoxc.jpg]

Knot A set at 51 mm:

[Image: 26SNL251_zpstpc7vtkq.jpg]

Knot A set at 52 mm:

[Image: 26SNL252_zpsmu8ghw5r.jpg]

Knot B set at 49 mm:

[Image: 26SLE549_zpsqjrzfs0r.jpg]

Knot B set at 50 mm:

[Image: 26SLE550_zpsequz0jph.jpg]

Knot B set at 51 mm:

[Image: 26SLE551_zpsjumrb1xp.jpg]

Knot B set at 52 mm:

[Image: 26SLE552_zpsazpbvji1.jpg]

Knot B set at 53 mm:

[Image: 26SLE553_zpsacpq7xh5.jpg]

Knot B set at 53.5 mm:

[Image: 26SLE553_5_zpsgjnz9u0x.jpg]

Knot B set at 54 mm:

[Image: 26SLE554_zpspdds6t6m.jpg]

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 10-01-2017, 07:24 AM
#8
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(10-01-2017, 07:19 AM)Paladin Shaving Wrote: [Warning: Lots of photos. Best not to include photos in replies.]

Sometimes a picture a thousand words.

Shown below are two knots, I'll refer to them as A and B here, both nominally sized for handles with 26 mm sockets.  Knot A was specified to have a base diameter of 25 mm with an overall height of 64. It's base measures about 25 mm, and it's overall height as delivered (before we sanded a little off the bottom to rough it up) was about 64.5 mm. Knot B was specified to have a base diameter of 25 mm with an overall height of 67 mm. It's base measures about 24.7 mm, and it's overall height as delivered was about 70 mm.

Note that knot B has more light-colored hair showing above the glue base than knot knot A. Not surprisingly, although knot B's base has a slightly smaller diameter, it fits more snugly into a 26 mm socket than knot A, which has very little light-colored hair visible above its base. Again, I've had knots with bases measuring under 25 mm that were too large to insert more than 1-2 mm past (above) the base in 26 mm sockets. When that happens, it can be a function of either hair density and/or glue dispersion within the hair above the visible circumference of the base. 

Knot A:

[Image: 26SNL2_zpscta2vc6s.jpg]

Knot B: 

[Image: 26SLE5_zpsfvsuoihh.jpg]

Knot B inserted into 26 mm sizing collar:

[Image: 26SLE5_in_Collar_Bottom_zpsvazefngb.jpg]

Knot A set at 49 mm:

[Image: 26SNL249_zpsjbjot0jj.jpg]

Knot A set at 50 mm:

[Image: 26SNL250_zpsfqirzoxc.jpg]

Knot A set at 51 mm:

[Image: 26SNL251_zpstpc7vtkq.jpg]

Knot A set at 52 mm:

[Image: 26SNL252_zpsmu8ghw5r.jpg]

Knot B set at 49 mm:

[Image: 26SLE549_zpsqjrzfs0r.jpg]

Knot B set at 50 mm:

[Image: 26SLE550_zpsequz0jph.jpg]

Knot B set at 51 mm:

[Image: 26SLE551_zpsjumrb1xp.jpg]

Knot B set at 52 mm:

[Image: 26SLE552_zpsazpbvji1.jpg]

Knot B set at 53 mm:

[Image: 26SLE553_zpsacpq7xh5.jpg]

Knot B set at 53.5 mm:

[Image: 26SLE553_5_zpsgjnz9u0x.jpg]

Knot B set at 54 mm:

[Image: 26SLE554_zpspdds6t6m.jpg]

Super informative post!

Thank you

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 10-01-2017, 07:39 AM
#9
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Forgot to mention the acrylic handle shown in the photos has a socket bored to 22 mm (depth) x 26 mm (diameter).

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 10-01-2017, 09:55 AM
#10
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Ken, that was an awesome set of pictures.  Very informative.  It's so interesting to see how socket diameter, knot diameter and configuration, and setting depth/loft interact.  The clear acrylic handle and the shims/spacers are brilliant.  Thanks very much for sharing this.

I'd love to know your thoughts on one point...if one wants a bit more flow through with a somewhat dense knot and wants a bit of a scrubby feel, widening the socket relative to the knot let's the knot bloom more and you can still maintain a lower loft...particularly if the knot is dense and fills out the gap between socket wall and knot.  With the few brushes I've been making I've been trying that out and I like the feel of it (of course YMMV)...as an example I set a 24mm fan in a 28mm socket meant for a 26mm knot  Confused.  Sounds crazy but I like it quite a bit.

Based on the this thread and others I've read this doesn't sound very typical, nor ideal.  Any thoughts on this?  Does this configuration just leave more opportunity for gunk to collect in the socket and perhaps damage the knot/glue plug?  Or is it that it's just better to have a knot made with the appropriate flow through to begin with?

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 10-01-2017, 10:03 AM
#11
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Ken, Brad, and Rudy, thank you for sharing your expertise.  We're fortunate to have you in our community.

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 10-01-2017, 10:41 AM
#12
  • MaxP
  • Senior Member
  • Madison, WI
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Ken's fixtures and methods are part of why the Paladin brushes have such a fine feel on the face

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 10-01-2017, 10:57 AM
#13
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(10-01-2017, 09:55 AM)wreck | fish Wrote: I'd love to know your thoughts on one point...if one wants a bit more flow through with a somewhat dense knot and wants a bit of a scrubby feel, widening the socket relative to the knot let's the knot bloom more and you can still maintain a lower loft...particularly if the knot is dense and fills out the gap between socket wall and knot.  With the few brushes I've been making I've been trying that out and I like the feel of it (of course YMMV)...as an example I set a 24mm fan in a 28mm socket meant for a 26mm knot  Confused.  Sounds crazy but I like it quite a bit.

Based on the this thread and others I've read this doesn't sound very typical, nor ideal.  Any thoughts on this?  Does this configuration just leave more opportunity for gunk to collect in the socket and perhaps damage the knot/glue plug?  Or is it that it's just better to have a knot made with the appropriate flow through to begin with?

I wouldn't say it's necessarily crazy, wrong, or bad to set a knot with a 24 mm base diameter in a 28 mm socket. For one thing, not all 24 mm knots are created equal. Some are significantly bigger  than others.

That said, it IS a pretty big difference. But IMO all knot-setting involves compromise. For me, it generally turns out to be an optimization exercise. And different wet-shavers prefer to optimize to achieve different outcomes based on different weighting of variable (e.g., density, control, feel, lathering efficiency, flow-through). 

When I sample knots, I usually set them at 2-3 different lofts within a range of 2-3 mm (say 51-53 for a 26 mm handle) over the course of several test lathers. The B knot in the photo set at 53 mm or even 53.5 mm makes for a different brush (again, in my assessment) than when set at 54 mm. That doesn't mean better or worse, just distinguishable in some subtle but not insignificant respects.

As for gunk and possible damage, extreme depth-of-set might make a difference, but no brush is going to last forever, and I'd rather have a brush I'll like better than one that would last longer. Given the way I use and clean my brushes, I don't think much gunk penetrates below the socket rim (other than hard-water mineral deposits). I've owned and used brushes for several years (some of which were several years old when I got them), and so far none has failed from anything that appears to be going on below the socket rim. The ones I have that show the most wear are of the hooked-tip variety, and that has nothing to do with size or set.

To the extent your concern is based on space a 24 mm knot will leave in a 28 mm socket, you should be able to mitigate that by using more glue, the trick, of course, being not to use too much.

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 10-01-2017, 11:20 AM
#14
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Thanks for the feedback Ken, that makes a lot of sense.  I am going to play with the variables more and try to put some #s to the variables...particularly around gap at the socket and thickness of the knot (at the glue as well as at the perimeter that ends up adjacent to the top of the socket.  Honestly, I find these details pretty fascinating!

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 10-01-2017, 03:22 PM
#15
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Just a fyi: setting a bulb shaped knot too deep leads to a pointy knot and this can be very uncomfortable when shaving  I think one or two of Ken's pictures how this clearly.
A Fan shaped knot is much more forgiving in this regard.

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 10-01-2017, 03:26 PM
#16
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You raise a good point Rudy.  It's good to have experts contributing to the discussion.

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 10-01-2017, 03:37 PM
#17
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(10-01-2017, 03:22 PM)Rudy Vey Wrote: Just a fyi: setting a bulb shaped knot too deep leads to a pointy knot and this can be very uncomfortable when shaving  I think one or two of Ken's pictures how this clearly.
A Fan shaped knot is much more forgiving in this regard.

+1. That was really the point (no pun intended) of putting those photos together. I set knots based on shape and feel, not loft.

2x is a good rule of thumb, but it shouldn't be rigidly applied.

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 10-01-2017, 05:18 PM
#18
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Right, makes sense.  Thanks for adding that.

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 10-01-2017, 06:21 PM
#19
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Great discussion and photos! Thanks to our talented brushmakers for chiming in with their expert advice.

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 10-01-2017, 06:26 PM
#20
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WOW, thank you everyone for the solid feedback and expertise.  Been very educating.

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