08-28-2012, 02:36 PM
#1
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Looking at the ingredients listed on a box of modern Williams and comparing what it says on a vintage box it appears that the amount of tallow was reduced and that glycerin replaced coconut oil. What people seemed to like best about the older formula was that they could whip up a great lather with a lot less effort.

Last weekend I decided to see if I could return Williams to its former glory. I boiled down three Williams pucks + 1 Arko stick into a paste. Funny thing about it is that despite the 3:1 ratio the concoction smelled more like Arko than Williams. On the Arko stick sodium tallowate is listed as the first ingredient, which suggests to me that vintage Williams smelled different and the strong lemon dishwasher detergent smell you get with modern Williams is kind of putting lipstick on the pig.
   
I added 30 pumps of coconut milk from Organix. The coconut smell quickly evaporated.

Then to try and bring back the lemon smell I added lemon extract, about 20 drops. I also lined the containers with lemon extract and put some more on top. The lemon is not the same as the modern Williams lemon but maybe that's a good thing.
   

I'm going to let the mix cure for several weeks and then try it. If I can quickly whip up a thick, rich lather and get a great shave I'll feel that I have in a way brought Williams back to its former glory by supplying some of its missing ingredients. If this effort was all for naught, well, it was fun trying.
   
Why is this man smiling? We're going to try to find out.

Stay tuned...

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 08-28-2012, 02:39 PM
#2
  • beartrap
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Subscribed! Very interested in the outcome.

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 08-28-2012, 02:40 PM
#3
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Very interesting indeed. I'll look forward to hearing your progress reports.

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 08-28-2012, 02:43 PM
#4
  • Dave
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Subscribed as well. I love Vintage Williams

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 08-28-2012, 02:56 PM
#5
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Anxiously awaiting positive results.

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 08-28-2012, 03:07 PM
#6
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Very interesting...thanks for including us.

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 08-28-2012, 04:52 PM
#7
  • Teiste
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  • Salt Lake City,UT
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Another subscription here!

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 08-28-2012, 05:25 PM
#8
  • jfmii
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  • Pittsburgh PA
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Very interesting! Look forward to your results.

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 08-28-2012, 06:06 PM
#9
  • wlmcad
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  • Memphis, TN
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Another subscription... Biggrin

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 08-28-2012, 08:01 PM
#10
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Yup, I want to know how it works out also.

You took actions that resulted in something a soap maker and I discussed last week, sort of. I know I'm being cryptic, but I was asked to not say more than I already had on the subject at the time.

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 08-28-2012, 08:04 PM
#11
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John, wow, what a great project to tackle. Can not wait to hear the results. You may have a winner, there!

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 08-28-2012, 08:05 PM
#12
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I am interested as well. I have two pounds of 1920's (16 pucks) colgate barber soap, two pucks of 40's Williams, and three more of what I believe are 60's colgate cup soap. Were yours brownish when you started the process?

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 08-28-2012, 08:23 PM
#13
  • Tonality
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  • Boston
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Whoa! Cool thread, I will certainly be following!

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 08-28-2012, 08:59 PM
#14
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Come on......Don't molest the Williams. Smile I get great shaves from the newer stuff just like I do from the older. No need to mix and add stuff. Just a technique thing. Smile

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 08-28-2012, 09:17 PM
#15
  • beartrap
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(08-28-2012, 08:59 PM)wchnu Wrote: Come on......Don't molest the Williams. Smile I get great shaves from the newer stuff just like I do from the older. No need to mix and add stuff. Just a technique thing. Smile

A technique thing? So, your technique makes Williams all cushiony and slick?

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 08-28-2012, 09:27 PM
#16
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(08-28-2012, 09:17 PM)beartrap Wrote:
(08-28-2012, 08:59 PM)wchnu Wrote: Come on......Don't molest the Williams. Smile I get great shaves from the newer stuff just like I do from the older. No need to mix and add stuff. Just a technique thing. Smile

A technique thing? So, your technique makes Williams all cushiony and slick?

I get just as good a shave from Williams as any other soap I use. The Older stuff and newer.

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 08-28-2012, 09:28 PM
#17
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Actually I agree with wchnu also. I can get an ultralther from it and then it is really quite good.

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 08-29-2012, 06:16 AM
#18
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Williams is the soap that's easiest for me to find where I live. It's not bad in my view, but it's also not the best stuff I own. I do find I need to use my boar brush rather than badger when I want to use it. The stiffer bristles help with the lather.

Curious to see how this whole experiment comes out. Nice to see the attempt.

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 08-29-2012, 07:49 AM
#19
  • krissy
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  • Cando, North Dakota
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is it okay if I speak out loud on this experiment? I'm just thinking here...... as a soapmaker and what I know about formulating various products and how the ingredients are used. I could be wrong......


What was the point of adding the coconut milk from Organix?
I would guess this product contains very little actual coconut milk, maybe 1% or less but maybe at the max 2 or even 3% just maybe..... just going where it's located on the ingredient list and the other ingredients around it and also the product is crystal clear.

But coconut milk and coconut oil are two different products and coconut oil needs to be saponified with lye to create soap.

Quote taken from this site about the product.
http://www.ulta.com/ulta/browse/productD...61#details
Quote:Organix Coconut Milk Anti-Breakage Serum helps repair damaged hair, split ends and frizziness. This blend of organic coconut oil, keratin and silk proteins promotes longer hair reducing damage while adding strength and elasticity to weak brittle hair.

Organix Coconut Milk Anti-Breakage Serum is a totally indulgent unique blend of organic weightless coconut oil and silk keratin proteins to instantly repair dry, damaged, coarse, and chemically treated hair. It helps resurface the hair, repair damaged hair and cuticles, and mend split ends and frizziness. Coconut Milk Anti-Breakage Serum adds strength and elasticity to weak, brittle and damaged hair, and promotes longer hair by helping reduce everyday damage.

Directions
After shampooing with Organix Shampoo, apply Organix Conditioner generously to hair, working through ends. Wait 3-5 minutes. Rinse hair thoroughly.


Di Water (Aqua),
Cetearyl Alcohol, this is an emulsifier
Behentrimonium Chloride, it's a Surfactant (detergent), antistatic, and hair conditioner
Cetearyl Alcohol, an emulsifier
Cetearyl Glucoside, emulsifier also helps hair and skin retain moisture and gives products a velvety touch after use
Glyceryl Stearate, acts as a lubricant on the skin’s surface, which gives the skin a soft and smooth appearance
Glycerin, humectant
Cyclomethicone, a silicone that is used as a carrier for scents
Dimethicone, also a silicone used to help detangle hair and acts as a skin protectant and emollient
Jojoba Oil, technically a wax and moisturizing to the skin
Panthenol, has a lot of moisturizing properties
Silk Amino Complex, used to give a silky feel to lotions and help increase hair growth
Coconut Milk, has important milk proteins that is good for the skin and hair.
Egg White Protein, has important proteins that is good for the skin and hair
Tocopheryl Acetate Vitamin E, antioxidant,
Tetrasodium EDTA, Chelating Agent
Fragrance (Parfum), scent
DMDM Hydrantoin, works as a preservative because the released formaldehyde makes the environment less favorable to the microorganisms. "One of the preservatives that has replaced formaldehyde is DMDM Hydantoin. This is one of a number of preservatives that work by acting as formaldehyde donors. So instead of adding formaldehyde itself you add a chemical that breaks down slowly over time to release a tiny amount of formaldehyde."
Methylchloroisothiazolinone, preservative with antibacterial and antifungal effects within the group of isothiazolinones. It is effective against gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria, yeast, and fungi.
Methylisothiazolinone, is a powerful biocide and preservative within the group of isothiazolinones, used amongst others

I'm trying to figure out how this is going to improve the lather or benefit your blend of williams and arko just going by the ingredient list of the product in being used?


Quote:Looking at the ingredients listed on a box of modern Williams and comparing what it says on a vintage box it appears that the amount of tallow was reduced and that glycerin replaced coconut oil. What people seemed to like best about the older formula was that they could whip up a great lather with a lot less effort.

One thing to remember is that the tallow is saponified with lye so it's no longer tallow it's a soap. The same goes for the coconut oil. Neither will lather on it's own in the raw state and needs to be saponified and turned into soap with the chemical reaction that takes place with oil is mixed with a lye solution. By lye solution I mean lye that has been mixed in with a liquid so it can blend and emulsify with the oil to create what we know as soap.

So unless your going by the Behentrimonium Chloride, it's a Surfactant (detergent), antistatic, and hair conditioner working to aid in your lather, I'm also concerned that the other ingredients in the product are going to cut the lather. But also that the silicones in the hair product could coat your brush which would not be a desirable results and would need to be washed out just like they do hair from time to time. Silicons in hair care products do tend to cause build up. But the ingredients of the arko may boost the williams since it has what the other lacks.

I could be wrong and it might whip up an awesome lather. YMMY according to each person on what they perceive as really good lather as well.

I'm going to let the mix cure for several weeks and then try it. A cure time is only needed when things are sponified by lye, and even then that is a controversial topic which I won't get into because it doesn't apply here. Or do you mean to harden up by the excess liquid added and the water needs to evaporate out that you needed to add to get the two soaps to melt down. Were you able to melt it down or did you get soft chunks? I've not tried to melt down hard tallow soap before. But you should be able to try it now and get the same results as you would if you waited several weeks as long as it's firm enough to lather with a brush which I have done before with soft freshly made shaving soaps. In a way it would be like lathering a soft Italian shaving croap.

Given you used 3 pucks of williams and an arko stick with the 30 pumps of the coconut milk product you may get the same results had your not added the coconut milk product at all. Hopefully the silicone and even the other emulsifiers because they are waxy don't cause problems with the brush long term. Arko is well known for it's lather and it's the scent that prevent a lot of people from using it.

I'm interested as well to see how this turns out, because williams doesn't work so well for me. The lather just doesn't have the same cushion that I get with other soaps. It's more airy for me and less dense. I've not used arko before so I can't say about how that works. It's on my someday list of things to get.

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 08-29-2012, 07:58 AM
#20
  • beartrap
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Interesting thinking, Krissy. I have no idea how to make a soap, from what I've read on the subject, Williams soap was done when the formulation was changed.
Brian and wchuu, it's always YMMV, no one can argue if you get good lather/shaves from it. If it was the only soap available on the market today, maybe. But compare it to anything else and the effort is not worth it (to me).

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