04-20-2018, 11:01 AM
#1
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I am somewhat confused and. I am looking for clarification-is it true that paradigm company will not be making this particular razor anymore Due to difficulty in manufacturing process?

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 04-20-2018, 11:04 AM
#2
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(04-20-2018, 11:01 AM)inspectoring Wrote: I am somewhat confused and. I am looking for clarification-is it true that paradigm company will not be making this particular razor anymore Due to difficulty in manufacturing process?


So initially what Andy said was that he would not be making any more 17-4 razors do to the cost and difficulty of machining. There was talk that if a SS was released again it would be in a lower quality version. Most recently I saw him say he was reconsidering because of many requests for its return. So I think the best answer that I can give is that it is uncertain at this time but not out of the question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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 04-20-2018, 04:52 PM
#3
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I believe Andy was looking into the correct tooling to use to machine the 17-4 material. He used incorrect tooling on the last batch and was the reason for not doing anymore.

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 04-21-2018, 10:05 AM
#4
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What MiKeL said. The right tools will cut through anything, so there is a possibility that Andrew might come out with a new batch of 17-4 in the future. It would be in my favor not to though, as I was planning on selling mine and retiring on the proceeds.

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 04-24-2018, 12:16 AM
#5
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(04-21-2018, 10:05 AM)kyproset Wrote: What MiKeL said. The right tools will cut through anything, so there is a possibility that Andrew might come out with a new batch of 17-4 in the future. It would be in my favor not to though, as I was planning on selling mine and retiring on the proceeds.

I agree it's kind of nice to know you have one of only I believe 125 17 4 razors that Andy and Phil released. If he does come out with more of them I'm sure it will be priced very close if not exactly the same as the Ti 1 and 11 at around $400 as I know he mentioned he lost $ on the first batch. If Andy chooses to use lets say 316 SS I'm sure it will sell out extremely fast as the head should be the same and I'd pick one up. At this time resale value of the existing 17 4 razors seems to be climbing up in the $500 range. I'm sure if Andy doesn't make any more we will see it climb to the $600 to $750 range by next winter and maybe sooner. I can't see myself ever selling it as it's one of my absolute favorites as far as shaves goes.

Also I believe because of the huge amount of rave reviews that this razor has gotten since its release it has sent some of the artisan razor designers/manufactures back to the drawing board and we will see new releases from them with even better shaving characteristics than their current offerings. Call it a gut feeling.

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 04-24-2018, 02:23 AM
#6
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Wanderer66,

I agree with you. I have upwards of 100 razors but without my 17-4, I'd feel naked and vulnerable. It never lets me down, it's there delivering true BBS's and beyond when I ask it to, every time without any trouble, no fail. Just don't use pressure and go for beard reduction in every pass. At this point, I would not buy another DE unless reviews compare it to the 17-4 and find it comparable.

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 04-24-2018, 04:48 PM
#7
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(04-24-2018, 12:16 AM)Wanderer66 Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 10:05 AM)kyproset Wrote: What MiKeL said. The right tools will cut through anything, so there is a possibility that Andrew might come out with a new batch of 17-4 in the future. It would be in my favor not to though, as I was planning on selling mine and retiring on the proceeds.

I agree it's kind of nice to know you have one of only I believe 125 17 4 razors that Andy and Phil released. If he does come out with more of them I'm sure it will be priced very close if not exactly the same as the Ti 1 and 11 at around $400 as I know he mentioned he lost $ on the first batch. If Andy chooses to use lets say 316 SS I'm sure it will sell out extremely fast as the head should be the same and I'd pick one up. At this time resale value of the existing 17 4 razors seems to be climbing up in the $500 range. I'm sure if Andy doesn't make any more we will see it climb to the $600 to $750 range by next winter and maybe sooner. I can't see myself ever selling it as it's one of my absolute favorites as far as shaves goes.

Also I believe because of the huge amount of rave reviews that this razor has gotten since its release it has sent some of the artisan razor designers/manufactures back to the drawing board and we will see new releases from them with even better shaving characteristics than their current offerings. Call it a gut feeling.

He lost $ I believe because of machine time overall from not using the proper tooling from what I remember. If he buys the proper tooling he'll be able to machine the razors in much less time than the previous batches but I don't think the difference in cost of the tooling would warrant an increase to $400 though. In fact it shouldn't even warrant an increase in price because the money he will save on machining time alone should more than offset what the correct tooling will cost so why would he increase the price when it should be cheaper for him to mfg them now? If he did increase the price in my opinion it shouldn't be no more than say $250-275 at most...

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 04-25-2018, 08:59 AM
#8
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waiting for a longer handle. The 80mm is going to work. Also there were comments about how it can rip your face off if you have the wrong technique.
scary! Maybe my Wolfman SB standard gap is the end of the line for me. Never get irritation. Never get nicks if I get just the least bit careless. It works for me! Just great shaves with no drama.

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 04-25-2018, 09:55 AM
#9
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(04-25-2018, 08:59 AM)tenreasy Wrote: waiting for a longer handle. The 80mm is going to work. Also there were comments about how it can rip your face off if you have the wrong technique.
scary! Maybe my Wolfman SB standard gap is the end of the line for me. Never get irritation. Never get nicks if I get just the least bit careless. It works for me! Just great shaves with no drama.

I dont know how anyone could say it will rip your face off.  this razor is so smooth the only issue I had was applying too much pressure when I first was using it and got some post shave razor burn.  you really have little if any blade feel so you need to remind yourself that the razor is working great even though you are not feeling the blade

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 04-26-2018, 05:22 AM
#10
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(04-24-2018, 04:48 PM)MikeL Wrote:
(04-24-2018, 12:16 AM)Wanderer66 Wrote:
(04-21-2018, 10:05 AM)kyproset Wrote: What MiKeL said. The right tools will cut through anything, so there is a possibility that Andrew might come out with a new batch of 17-4 in the future. It would be in my favor not to though, as I was planning on selling mine and retiring on the proceeds.

I agree it's kind of nice to know you have one of only I believe 125 17 4 razors that Andy and Phil released. If he does come out with more of them I'm sure it will be priced very close if not exactly the same as the Ti 1 and 11 at around $400 as I know he mentioned he lost $ on the first batch. If Andy chooses to use lets say 316 SS I'm sure it will sell out extremely fast as the head should be the same and I'd pick one up. At this time resale value of the existing 17 4 razors seems to be climbing up in the $500 range. I'm sure if Andy doesn't make any more we will see it climb to the $600 to $750 range by next winter and maybe sooner. I can't see myself ever selling it as it's one of my absolute favorites as far as shaves goes.

Also I believe because of the huge amount of rave reviews that this razor has gotten since its release it has sent some of the artisan razor designers/manufactures back to the drawing board and we will see new releases from them with even better shaving characteristics than their current offerings. Call it a gut feeling.

He lost $ I believe because of machine time overall from not using the proper tooling from what I remember. If he buys the proper tooling he'll be able to machine the razors in much less time than the previous batches but I don't think the difference in cost of the tooling would warrant an increase to $400 though. In fact it shouldn't even warrant an increase in price because the money he will save on machining time alone should more than offset what the correct tooling will cost so why would he increase the price when it should be cheaper for him to mfg them now? If he did increase the price in my opinion it shouldn't be no more than say $250-275 at most...

(04-25-2018, 09:55 AM)Shavemd Wrote:
(04-25-2018, 08:59 AM)tenreasy Wrote: waiting for a longer handle. The 80mm is going to work. Also there were comments about how it can rip your face off if you have the wrong technique.
scary! Maybe my Wolfman SB standard gap is the end of the line for me. Never get irritation. Never get nicks if I get just the least bit careless. It works for me! Just great shaves with no drama.

I dont know how anyone could say it will rip your face off.  this razor is so smooth the only issue I had was applying too much pressure when I first was using it and got some post shave razor burn.  you really have little if any blade feel so you need to remind yourself that the razor is working great even though you are not feeling the blade


Mike L
After talking to Brain at Charcoal about this subject he mentioned that the 17 4 steel is very difficult to work with and he himself would not even consider it. Machine and Tooling to work with it would cost more money than the normal machinery you'd need to work with 316 for example. So yes I'd say if he does invest in it he'd have to amortize the cost of the equipment in each razor he makes and I'm sure after talking to Brain Andy would be looking at well over $100,000 for that equipment so yes I'm speculating it would cost the same as the Titanium razors. Hey only Andy would really have the answers so I guess we will have to wait and see what steel he decides to comes out with when he brings back the 17 4 again. 


I agree @ShaveMD/ Mark. I don't see how anyone could rip their face off using the 17 4 unless they had really bad technique along with using a blade that was totally wrong for their face. The 17 4 is one of if not the smoothest shaving razors in my den.

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 04-26-2018, 05:50 AM
#11
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If the added investment in equipment will cost a further $100,000 just to be able to handle 17-4 steel, I don't see why not keep to the tried and tested 316 steel and keep costs down.

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 04-26-2018, 10:28 AM
#12
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I think using 17-4 is a marketing idea to sell the product. If the razor head design is as good as folks say then I would imagine that a 316 version would sell-out quickly.

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 04-26-2018, 12:09 PM
#13
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(04-26-2018, 10:28 AM)tenreasy Wrote: I think using 17-4 is a marketing idea to sell the product. If the razor head design is as good as folks say then I would imagine that a 316 version would sell-out quickly.
You have a point here, if Andrew used 17-4 steel as an innovation to enter the market, which he did admirably, proving the greatness of the head along the way, there is no real need to use 17-4 steel again, just the same head configuration and it's business as usual.

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 04-27-2018, 04:17 AM
#14
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(04-26-2018, 05:22 AM)Wanderer66 Wrote:
(04-24-2018, 04:48 PM)MikeL Wrote:
(04-24-2018, 12:16 AM)Wanderer66 Wrote: I agree it's kind of nice to know you have one of only I believe 125 17 4 razors that Andy and Phil released. If he does come out with more of them I'm sure it will be priced very close if not exactly the same as the Ti 1 and 11 at around $400 as I know he mentioned he lost $ on the first batch. If Andy chooses to use lets say 316 SS I'm sure it will sell out extremely fast as the head should be the same and I'd pick one up. At this time resale value of the existing 17 4 razors seems to be climbing up in the $500 range. I'm sure if Andy doesn't make any more we will see it climb to the $600 to $750 range by next winter and maybe sooner. I can't see myself ever selling it as it's one of my absolute favorites as far as shaves goes.

Also I believe because of the huge amount of rave reviews that this razor has gotten since its release it has sent some of the artisan razor designers/manufactures back to the drawing board and we will see new releases from them with even better shaving characteristics than their current offerings. Call it a gut feeling.

He lost $ I believe because of machine time overall from not using the proper tooling from what I remember. If he buys the proper tooling he'll be able to machine the razors in much less time than the previous batches but I don't think the difference in cost of the tooling would warrant an increase to $400 though. In fact it shouldn't even warrant an increase in price because the money he will save on machining time alone should more than offset what the correct tooling will cost so why would he increase the price when it should be cheaper for him to mfg them now? If he did increase the price in my opinion it shouldn't be no more than say $250-275 at most...

(04-25-2018, 09:55 AM)Shavemd Wrote:
(04-25-2018, 08:59 AM)tenreasy Wrote: waiting for a longer handle. The 80mm is going to work. Also there were comments about how it can rip your face off if you have the wrong technique.
scary! Maybe my Wolfman SB standard gap is the end of the line for me. Never get irritation. Never get nicks if I get just the least bit careless. It works for me! Just great shaves with no drama.

I dont know how anyone could say it will rip your face off.  this razor is so smooth the only issue I had was applying too much pressure when I first was using it and got some post shave razor burn.  you really have little if any blade feel so you need to remind yourself that the razor is working great even though you are not feeling the blade


Mike L
After talking to Brain at Charcoal about this subject he mentioned that the 17 4 steel is very difficult to work with and he himself would not even consider it. Machine and Tooling to work with it would cost more money than the normal machinery you'd need to work with 316 for example. So yes I'd say if he does invest in it he'd have to amortize the cost of the equipment in each razor he makes and I'm sure after talking to Brain Andy would be looking at well over $100,000 for that equipment so yes I'm speculating it would cost the same as the Titanium razors. Hey only Andy would really have the answers so I guess we will have to wait and see what steel he decides to comes out with when he brings back the 17 4 again. 


I agree @ShaveMD/ Mark. I don't see how anyone could rip their face off using the 17 4 unless they had really bad technique along with using a blade that was totally wrong for their face. The 17 4 is one of if not the smoothest shaving razors in my den.

He already has the equipment to machine the razors, what he needs is the tooling. Drill bits, end mills, and such and my 30+yrs experience in Industrial Tooling and Supplies would lend me to think $100k could buy enough tooling for a run of 1000+ razors!! Just for sh!ts and giggles lets say he does need to raise the price, like I mentioned before, I don't think your looking at $400 per razor but more like $250-275 at the most. If it was done in 316 he could probably offer it near the $200 price range also... Just my .02c....

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 04-27-2018, 08:38 PM
#15
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(04-27-2018, 04:17 AM)MikeL Wrote:
(04-26-2018, 05:22 AM)Wanderer66 Wrote:
(04-24-2018, 04:48 PM)MikeL Wrote: He lost $ I believe because of machine time overall from not using the proper tooling from what I remember. If he buys the proper tooling he'll be able to machine the razors in much less time than the previous batches but I don't think the difference in cost of the tooling would warrant an increase to $400 though. In fact it shouldn't even warrant an increase in price because the money he will save on machining time alone should more than offset what the correct tooling will cost so why would he increase the price when it should be cheaper for him to mfg them now? If he did increase the price in my opinion it shouldn't be no more than say $250-275 at most...

(04-25-2018, 09:55 AM)Shavemd Wrote: I dont know how anyone could say it will rip your face off.  this razor is so smooth the only issue I had was applying too much pressure when I first was using it and got some post shave razor burn.  you really have little if any blade feel so you need to remind yourself that the razor is working great even though you are not feeling the blade


Mike L
After talking to Brain at Charcoal about this subject he mentioned that the 17 4 steel is very difficult to work with and he himself would not even consider it. Machine and Tooling to work with it would cost more money than the normal machinery you'd need to work with 316 for example. So yes I'd say if he does invest in it he'd have to amortize the cost of the equipment in each razor he makes and I'm sure after talking to Brain Andy would be looking at well over $100,000 for that equipment so yes I'm speculating it would cost the same as the Titanium razors. Hey only Andy would really have the answers so I guess we will have to wait and see what steel he decides to comes out with when he brings back the 17 4 again. 


I agree @ShaveMD/ Mark. I don't see how anyone could rip their face off using the 17 4 unless they had really bad technique along with using a blade that was totally wrong for their face. The 17 4 is one of if not the smoothest shaving razors in my den.

He already has the equipment to machine the razors, what he needs is the tooling. Drill bits, end mills, and such and my 30+yrs experience in Industrial Tooling and Supplies would lend me to think $100k could buy enough tooling for a run of 1000+ razors!! Just for sh!ts and giggles lets say he does need to raise the price, like I mentioned before, I don't think your looking at $400 per razor but more like $250-275 at the most. If it was done in 316 he could probably offer it near the $200 price range also... Just my .02c....

Curious what kind of mark up are you using to arrive at the retail price you posted from manufactures unit cost to end user retail price? Reason I'm asking is Andy has used Bullgoose and who knows if he plans on using other distributors in the future to sell his razors. If so his business model would have to allow him to make a decent profit selling to a distributor and then they are going to probably at least double that number to the end user. Anything you can sell direct to consumer lets say off your own website without the middleman is a big bonus!  It sounds like you have the knowledge of the tooling etc. and I totally respect that.  I'm a manufacture of personal care products and I know the path from manufacturing to distribution to retail so I'm asking what kind of margins are you giving Andy? Again I'm just curious. I also agree with you if he uses 316 steel he can offer then for less money and I'd say your in the ballpark with the $200 range but I'm thinking with distributors involved more like $225 to $260. Just my guess on the 316 version. I will stand with my opinion that if and it's a big if he comes out with the 17 4 again it will be somewhere between $375 and $395.

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