10-26-2018, 02:51 PM
#41
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Restaurants get this all the time.  Person eats a nice meal and says it sucked and won't pay for garbage like that.  What's the restaurant owner to do?

But I'm curious about the charge back scam involving the credit card.  If a person buys an e-commerce item, receives it and says the box was empty, the credit card company will omit the charge from his bill. (In the U.S. card companies are required to protect consumers from unauthorized charges if the consumer notifies the card company within 30 days of the unauthorized purchase).  But does the credit card company charge the vendor for the full cost of that item without investigating?  Doesn't the CC company allow an honest vendor to keep the payment, give the customer his money back, and take the charge itself as a cost of doing business?  How does that work from the vendor's side?  I guess I'm asking whether the "empty box" scam is a scam on the CC company or the vendor.

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 10-26-2018, 03:21 PM
#42
  • chazt
  • Senior Member
  • Queens, NY
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Phil started this thread to share his frustrated feelings as a vendor who believes a person was trying to take advantage of him.

Recently the conversation has begun to devolve into the political arena which is antithetical to forum rules. While I’m not a member of the moderation team, I urge members to review the rules. http://shavenook.com/misc.php?action=help&hid=8.

Let’s keep it about shaving, please Smile

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 10-26-2018, 03:56 PM
#43
  • bullgoose
  • The Enabler
  • Redondo Beach, California, U.S.A
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(10-26-2018, 02:51 PM)BrickHud Wrote: Restaurants get this all the time.  Person eats a nice meal and says it sucked and won't pay for garbage like that.  What's the restaurant owner to do?

But I'm curious about the charge back scam involving the credit card.  If a person buys an e-commerce item, receives it and says the box was empty, the credit card company will omit the charge from his bill. (In the U.S. card companies are required to protect consumers from unauthorized charges if the consumer notifies the card company within 30 days of the unauthorized purchase).  But does the credit card company charge the vendor for the full cost of that item without investigating?  Doesn't the CC company allow an honest vendor to keep the payment, give the customer his money back, and take the charge itself as a cost of doing business?  How does that work from the vendor's side?  I guess I'm asking whether the "empty box" scam is a scam on the CC company or the vendor.

Yes, they take the money from the vendor and then tack on an extra charge for the privilege of doing so. Paypal investigates but credit card companies generally do not with American Express being the worst. The empty box scam is a scam on the vendor...the credit card company actually comes out ahead.

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 10-26-2018, 07:37 PM
#44
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Vendors can contest chargebacks, but it’s both tedious and difficult to figure out the protocol. It’s easier for larger companies to navigate. The one limiting factor is that credit card companies may deny chargeback requests if it’s a pattern on the customer side.

If someone is using a stolen credit card, then all bets are off. There is likely no history of customer chargebacks, and the vendor suffers. I guess the expectation is that the vendor is supposed to prevent fraud, but that’s not realistic for a small shop in a card-not-present scenario. Fraud can literally put companies out of business.

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 10-26-2018, 11:47 PM
#45
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What are the next course of action for an e-tailer as such? Would simply ignoring the email suffice?

Having met 'customers' with zero sense of shame/ ethics, you have my sympathies.

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 10-27-2018, 04:29 AM
#46
  • BSWoodturning
  • Co-Owner, Brad Sears ShaveWorks
  • Maryland Eastern Shore
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(10-26-2018, 11:47 PM)gmtshave Wrote: What are the next course of action for an e-tailer as such? Would simply ignoring the email suffice?

Having met 'customers' with zero sense of shame/ ethics, you have my sympathies.

Eyup.

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 11-24-2018, 03:34 AM
#47
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Perhaps if customers like these spent as much time trying to find a job rather than spending their time scamming others, they might find themselves a happier bunch.

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 06-02-2019, 02:27 PM
#48
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(10-25-2018, 10:18 AM)bullgoose Wrote: When you think of shoplifting, you assume that it is being done at a brick and mortar store with the customer stuffing items into an overcoat or down his pants. However, those of us involved in e-commerce know better. There is just as much theft, if not more, from an e-commerce store. You would be amazed. 

Theft, or at least theft attempts, have risen dramatically in the past few years. Part of this can be attributed to the credit card companies in the form of charge-backs. While Paypal will investigate a claim and will weigh evidence on both sides, the credit card companies will not. All a customer has to do is claim the product did not match the description and they will win the charge-back whether or not this is a load of crap. I once had a customer buy two bottles of Boellis Panama cologne, use them for 5 months and then file a claim with the credit card company claiming that the scent was not as described.

Scam artists are also constantly trying to get store owners to send them something for free. These guises take many forms but they almost always use deception and try to appeal to your good nature. While there are many different forms, an example may help. Last week, we received the following email:

I received your Asylum 89 DE Razor as a retirement gift. When we opened the wooden box we found no razor in it. All I know is this product came from your fine establishment. I’m sure this was simple mistake. I have provided you with my home address. This gift was an anonymous one so I have no order number, all I can give you is my word. I was raised by the good book so my integrity is without question. I had no need for an empty box, hence in the dumpster it went. I’m sure you have this razor laying around without a box in your facility. I respectfully request a shaving soap for the hassle of this mistake. Thank you in advance for your time and attention in this manner.
 
How can I be sure this is a scam? There are several telltale signs.




  • He claims to not know who sent him the gift. If that is true, how does he know that the gift was an Asylum 89? The Asylum boxes do not indicate what model is inside. 
  • If the invoice indicates that the order was for an Asylum 89, it would also list the recipient and the order number.
  • The Asylum razors are assembled by me, wrapped in their flour cloth towel and placed into the wooden box by me on an order by order basis. These is no way that I would include an empty box. While I certainly screw up from time to time, this is simply a mistake that I would never make. 
But -I played nice and indicated that I had no record of him as a customer or a recipient. Since I had no record of anyone in Illinois (his home address) buying an Asylum 89,  I asked if perhaps he could provide me with a few possibilities of who purchased the razor.  His true colors immediately showed. Raised by the good book? I don’t think so.

His reply was a profanity ridden rant filled with ad hominem attacks, political slurs, uncontrolled anger, and typos. Think that I am exaggerating? Here is his follow-up email (edited to comply with forum rules against profanity)

Wow, like I said stupid it was a gift. Can you not read. Who the hell orders there own retirement gift. The bullshit was sealed , there was no way in hell anyone in our circle took the dam razor. I can tell you are a liberal piece of shit. You have no loyalty to your military. I bet your whore of a grandma spit on returning soldiers in the 60’s. You have a thief in your mist maybe it’s you! So f*** you and your cheap ass razor you f***ing thief. #Trumpzilla 

This sort of incident has been on the rise for the past two years and it has really helped to take the fun out of the industry.

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 06-02-2019, 02:32 PM
#49
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Now this would have been fun to do,,,,you should have got the mans name address and then sent him another empty box a couple of stones in it for weight to feel like it had a razor in the box, & with a pop up middle finger and a message on it saying ( here's your razor ass wipe ! ) l ,,,,just to have had the last laugh !!!

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 06-02-2019, 08:27 PM
#50
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Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that there are certain national big-box stores that have return policies that border on being ridiculous. Those policies create a perception that returns will always be accepted and the customer should never be questioned. As an example, I was in a warehouse store when a customer was returning a gigantic television on the day after the super bowl. A store employee told me (1) the receipt was dated the day prior to the super bowl and (2) the store has a generous daily budget for returns and accepts them without question as a cost of doing business. Depending on the item, the returns either get tossed in the trash or returned to the manufacturer. Either way, the store is enabling/encouraging bad behavior. Phil has sometimes referred to himself as an enabler, but that is in a different context. This particular big box store takes it to a whole different level. It creates unreasonable customer expectations in the generation that already thinks of themselves as being special and entitled. Bottom line: higher costs for all merchants and the honest customers.

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 06-03-2019, 12:45 PM
#51
  • bullgoose
  • The Enabler
  • Redondo Beach, California, U.S.A
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(06-02-2019, 08:27 PM)slackskin Wrote: Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that there are certain national big-box stores that have return policies that border on being ridiculous. Those policies create a perception that returns will always be accepted and the customer should never be questioned. As an example, I was in a warehouse store when a customer was returning a gigantic television on the day after the super bowl. A store employee told me (1) the receipt was dated the day prior to the super bowl and (2) the store has a generous daily budget for returns and accepts them without question as a cost of doing business. Depending on the item, the returns either get tossed in the trash or returned to the manufacturer. Either way, the store is enabling/encouraging bad behavior. Phil has sometimes referred to himself as an enabler, but that is in a different context. This particular big box store takes it to a whole different level. It creates unreasonable customer expectations in the generation that already thinks of themselves as being special and entitled. Bottom line: higher costs for all merchants and the honest customers.

That is definitely true! While this may just be a cost of doing business for Walmart or Target, it can be devastating for a small business.

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 06-25-2019, 03:35 PM
#52
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I just shake my head and it seems I continually am asking myself, “How hard is it to be a good person?”

The most recent event was when someone stole my credit card number (who knows how), and they ordered 200+ dollars of Chipotle Online...just terrible.

I try not to let these things get me down!

Vr

Matt

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