01-05-2019, 02:36 PM
#1
  • nikos.a
  • Senior Member
  • Athens, Greece
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First of all, Happy New Year everyone!

I always thought that when buying a clone is like not rewarding the original maker for his time, effort and skills. It can be a fragrance, a razor head or handle etc. If the original product is much more expensive, I'd rather save some money and buy it. That happens when I want something badly and thinking about it for a long time. I want to reward the innovation. These people must be rewarded, not some smart guys who just copy someone else's creation and offer it at a more affordable or super cheap price (Hello China, India, Pakistan). What's the point of doing this? By purchasing a clone, there is no motive for the original makers to keep producing innovative items. If there is someone waiting for you to offer a product and then just make a copy, then why keep making any more? Razorock, Maggard, Fine, Stork are some good examples. They love copying other makers work. I have no problem with vendors and artisans that offer copies of products that are no longer in production. A few years ago, Darwin was a hit. Wolfman, Jurgen Hempel, Asylum made handles or full razors to honor that legendary design. But, if you make a copy of a product that is still in production, even if it's a limited run or expensive or both, then you don't show any respect to the original maker, you just grab money out of his pocket. Because sooner or later, the one who wants something very much will find a way to purchase it. I'm not talking about products that are sold for thousands and there's a copy that costs less than a hundred euros or dollars. This is a different story.
Example: AdP Colonia asl costs about 60 euros. Fine Citrus asl, a Colonia clone, costs 25 euros. Why on earth would anyone buy the Fine instead of the original? I know this happens pretty often, so don't kill me. AdP is a historical brand, Fine is a company whose success is based on making clone fragrances for their asl, soaps and now creams. You will probably say that Fine products are easier accessible, but still...
If I want the Aventus, I'll buy the Aventus. I don't, but let's say I want. If I don't have the money or can't save any, I won't buy it. A clone is a clone, it's not the fragrance you love or think you love if you have never smelled it. I don't even know how many reviews I have read about Aventus clone fragrances saying that the scent is close to the original while the reviewers have never smelled the original. These reviews certainly lack of value.
I could go on and write many examples, but I think you got my point.

Long story short, skills and innovative ideas must be rewarded. Copiers must not.


What's your opinion on this matter?

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 01-05-2019, 02:54 PM
#2
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I fully agree with you.  Most people, however, want their products as inexpensive as possible.  I also cannot afford $60 soaps.

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 01-05-2019, 02:54 PM
#3
  • chazt
  • Senior Member
  • Queens, NY
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Nick, you raise thought provoking ideas. Can scents and shapes be copyrighted or patented? That would certainly be of value to the innovators.

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 01-05-2019, 04:05 PM
#4
  • nikos.a
  • Senior Member
  • Athens, Greece
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(01-05-2019, 02:54 PM)chazt Wrote: Nick, you raise thought provoking ideas. Can scents and shapes be copyrighted or patented? That would certainly be of value to the innovators.


Charlie, they may sound provoking but as I was writing this I imagined what an innovator would think about his hard work being stolen. I wouldn't want that if I were in his shoes.

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 01-05-2019, 04:09 PM
#5
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(01-05-2019, 02:54 PM)chazt Wrote: Nick, you raise thought provoking ideas. Can scents and shapes be copyrighted or patented? That would certainly be of value to the innovators.
Perfume compositions and captive odorants can be patented but patents have short lives and require full disclosure. Likewise design patents can be had but offer limited protection. The Mongoose is one recent example of a razor with a design patent. It won't help protect from Chinese or other copycats outside the US.

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 01-07-2019, 10:05 PM
#6
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So Nick are you saying you'll buy the original you want only if it doesn't cost a certain amount more than the clone? Part of your post seems very against any type of clone, part of it sounds like you would only buy the original in certain situations.
For me, I don't buy high-end fragrances so its hard for me to chime in on products in the realm of colognes/EDT's. But for scent profiles in soaps or aftershaves, I don't think its fair to knock producers using a particular scent profile that might have been popularized by a fragrance house, because those fragrance houses aren't making good shaving soaps or aftershaves for us to use. Sure, a few places like Creed or Penhaligons or whoever else made soaps back in the day that were scented with their popular fragrances and performed well. But now they are not producing shaving soaps that give us good performance like Stirling, Declaration, Mystic Water and other artisans who 'clone' these scent profiles. The truth is there are only so many scent profiles (such as Aventus like you mentioned) that will ever be considered "iconic", and I don't fault the artisans for making soaps and aftershaves that mimic those scents because if you want that scent in a good performing product you're just not going to get it otherwise.
I also have pretty strong feelings about the prices that people are paying for razors so I'm not going to go there...  Cool

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 01-08-2019, 04:52 AM
#7
  • nikos.a
  • Senior Member
  • Athens, Greece
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(01-07-2019, 10:05 PM)jesseix Wrote: So Nick are you saying you'll buy the original you want only if it doesn't cost a certain amount more than the clone? Part of your post seems very against any type of clone, part of it sounds like you would only buy the original in certain situations.
For me, I don't buy high-end fragrances so its hard for me to chime in on products in the realm of colognes/EDT's. But for scent profiles in soaps or aftershaves, I don't think its fair to knock producers using a particular scent profile that might have been popularized by a fragrance house, because those fragrance houses aren't making good shaving soaps or aftershaves for us to use. Sure, a few places like Creed or Penhaligons or whoever else made soaps back in the day that were scented with their popular fragrances and performed well. But now they are not producing shaving soaps that give us good performance like Stirling, Declaration, Mystic Water and other artisans who 'clone' these scent profiles. The truth is there are only so many scent profiles (such as Aventus like you mentioned) that will ever be considered "iconic", and I don't fault the artisans for making soaps and aftershaves that mimic those scents because if you want that scent in a good performing product you're just not going to get it otherwise.
I also have pretty strong feelings about the prices that people are paying for razors so I'm not going to go there...  Cool
My point is that if I can afford the price difference between a clone and an original product, I will buy the original. Buying the Razorock 37 instead of the Merkur 37, an already affordable razor, seems rather irrational.

When you buy an original product that is within you budget, you reward the innovator for his time, skills and effort put on this. When you buy a clone, you support the clone industry.

I'd like to mention that I'm not into the high-end/niche fragrances. I don't collect, I don't spend crazy money on fragrances. I don't see the reason to do so. I don't wear those I have to smell nice. I wear them to feel good. Wearing one that I(!) like makes my day. Also, by buying the original, I reward the creator and give him the motive to continue his work.

Anyway, there is an extensive discussion on B&B about this with more than 50 posts. There is not much posting lately here, except for the BST section. A few years ago, there would be pages of posts in this thread.

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 01-08-2019, 11:25 AM
#8
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(01-08-2019, 04:52 AM)nikos.a Wrote:
(01-07-2019, 10:05 PM)jesseix Wrote: So Nick are you saying you'll buy the original you want only if it doesn't cost a certain amount more than the clone? Part of your post seems very against any type of clone, part of it sounds like you would only buy the original in certain situations.
For me, I don't buy high-end fragrances so its hard for me to chime in on products in the realm of colognes/EDT's. But for scent profiles in soaps or aftershaves, I don't think its fair to knock producers using a particular scent profile that might have been popularized by a fragrance house, because those fragrance houses aren't making good shaving soaps or aftershaves for us to use. Sure, a few places like Creed or Penhaligons or whoever else made soaps back in the day that were scented with their popular fragrances and performed well. But now they are not producing shaving soaps that give us good performance like Stirling, Declaration, Mystic Water and other artisans who 'clone' these scent profiles. The truth is there are only so many scent profiles (such as Aventus like you mentioned) that will ever be considered "iconic", and I don't fault the artisans for making soaps and aftershaves that mimic those scents because if you want that scent in a good performing product you're just not going to get it otherwise.
I also have pretty strong feelings about the prices that people are paying for razors so I'm not going to go there...  Cool
My point is that if I can afford the price difference between a clone and an original product, I will buy the original. Buying the Razorock 37 instead of the Merkur 37, an already affordable razor, seems rather irrational.

When you buy an original product that is within you budget, you reward the innovator for his time, skills and effort put on this. When you buy a clone, you support the clone industry.

I'd like to mention that I'm not into the high-end/niche fragrances. I don't collect, I don't spend crazy money on fragrances. I don't see the reason to do so. I don't wear those I have to smell nice. I wear them to feel good. Wearing one that I(!) like makes my day. Also, by buying the original, I reward the creator and give him the motive to continue his work.

Anyway, there is an extensive discussion on B&B about this with more than 50 posts. There is not much posting lately here, except for the BST section. A few years ago, there would be pages of posts in this thread.
One can buy the RR 37 head alone to be used with a handle of your choice, not an option with the Merkur. That's why I bought it. Seemed rational at the time.

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 01-08-2019, 11:55 AM
#9
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I agree with at least some of the sentiment that Nick has re clones.  In some cases though, the original item is just not available to any degree(like a toggle).  I also don't pay high bucks for scents.  That includes artisans EdP's that priced like Creed when you calculate cost per ml(or ounce).

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 01-08-2019, 12:09 PM
#10
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I’m not a frag head so no concern there but I always buy original hardware. YMMV thing. I can understand where someone with a limited budget would. Can’t fault them. I’m not in their shoes and can’t judge.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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 01-08-2019, 02:11 PM
#11
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The Swiss watch industry is beset with Asian fakes that steal their brands.  There are fakes that are made with CNC using a genuine watch(usually Rolex but all of the big ones are vulnerable to this).  We don't see a lot of outright counterfeit razors, brushes, or even blades.  The other thing that the watch industry has to contend with is homages.  Watches that look like a Rolex Submariner(for example) including the magnifying cyclops for the date but the dial doesn't say "Rolex".  The watch industry views homages as OK to do.  Anywho....

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 01-08-2019, 06:30 PM
#12
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I'm not a frag head, and usually keep three original frags in rotation.  I've never purchased a clone.  However, I don't see a problem with buying clones if you can't pay the price of an original, or just choose not to.  I have sampled some clones over the years, and found that they lack the intensity, complexity and longevity of the original.

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 01-09-2019, 01:37 AM
#13
  • ischiapp
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  • Ischia, Naples, Italy
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If the clone has no added value, I go to the original when It's about wetshaving.
Sometimes, the original is good but not enough for the price.
Specially the products made by specialized factory for the perfume industry.
In that industry, main feature is the scent not the soap / lotion.

One exemple, Dior Sauvage.
I love that fragrance.
But shaving cream and aftershave I find not being technically as good as the scent.
I've used, but I do not purchase them any more.

When Phoenix Shaving created the Formula CK-6 with Doppelganger project, I jumped in for the Black Label.
It's a clone of Dior Sauvage, but with a huge added value.
Both the soap and the balm (Jelly Star, another great product!!), are very close to the original scent.
But here the main feature is the wetshaving, with quite better performaces.

This kind of clone for me is good, and IMHO actually better than original for the specific purpose.

Another kind I love is the missing product.
There is a large number of perfumes out there, without the corresponding shaving products.
A clone of the fragrance, which creates a new product, I find a smart use of this technique.

On the other hand, I do not understand some copy products in the perfume industry.
Above all because the two magic words of marketing (inspiration and tribute / hommage), to an expert user induce suspicion.
I have never found an inexpensive perfume copy of a famous one that came even close to the original for complexity and specially duration.
So in the end, spending more money at the beginning for a technically better product I think is the best economic investment.

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 01-10-2019, 04:36 AM
#14
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We live in a golden age of bespoke wet shaving gear. There has never been a larger selection of hardware or software; regardless of your price point, there is something for everyone.

Quite a bit of this is made possible by the cross pollination of ideas. Take Stork for example. Among some Wolfman acolytes, Stork’s name is anathema because they ‘improved’ on the WRH7 handle. I’ve read a dozen people dismissing them as hacks and counterfeiters, despite them arguabley offering the largest selection of unique titanium handle designs in the world.

I would never knowlingly buy a counterfeit represented as the real thing, but enthusiastically embrace the legitimacy of interpretations of popular works. That’s how art and culture develop and my world is a far better place for it.

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 01-12-2019, 03:30 AM
#15
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Some good points made here. I own very few colognes but that is one area I'm not looking for a clone. Maybe if I was more into that I'd look to save some money. I don't know. Other things like razors, probably because so many of them seem so similar to another, to another, to another with differences in plating, handle design.

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 01-14-2019, 04:22 PM
#16
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This doesn't happen very often with clones, but I have used both and I prefer Razorock's Santa Maria del Fiore soap/cream to the original Santa Maria Novella. There, I've said it.

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 01-14-2019, 04:27 PM
#17
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I have no problem buying generic (or store brand) medicine vs name brand.

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