09-30-2012, 02:16 AM
#21
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(09-29-2012, 09:10 PM)nav Wrote: Whilst the supply of badger hair can vary, it is up to the quality control of the manufacturer to ensure that just because they have received "best" grade from their supplier, that it actually meets their specs of the grade.

If you knew what I know, you would understand.

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 10-01-2012, 12:08 AM
#22
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(09-30-2012, 02:16 AM)asharperrazor Wrote:
(09-29-2012, 09:10 PM)nav Wrote: Whilst the supply of badger hair can vary, it is up to the quality control of the manufacturer to ensure that just because they have received "best" grade from their supplier, that it actually meets their specs of the grade.

If you knew what I know, you would understand.

Hi Lee,
From your reply, it seems you are suggesting it's OK for a manufacturer to use inferior parts in their product just because supply is not as consistent as they would like.

Having been in the situation personally where I received two Berkeley's that were world's apart, I can tell you I don't care about the supply issues. All I know is that the second Berkeley was just rubbish and I truly felt ripped off. I would never have bought another Simpson brush if it wasn't for thesuperiorshave.com and having the ability to choose actual stock lead me to getting my daily brush.

When Simpson get it right, they really get it right...but when they get it wrong, it's truly bad!

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 10-01-2012, 12:26 AM
#23
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(09-29-2012, 09:10 PM)nav Wrote: My first Berkeley was perfect. I loved it totally. It had good density, soft but scrubby tips (not scratchy!) and decent back bone. I sold it and a few months later, bought another one and boy was I shocked. The 2nd Berkeley had much darker tips, much less hair in the brush, horrible scratch and just plain unpleasant to use! I couldn't believe the variance of what should be a near identical product if a manufacturer quality control process is strong.

Sounds like my story. First Berkeley awesome, second Berkeley.....you already know.

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 10-01-2012, 06:00 AM
#24
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infabo / nav:

I'm presuming you guys on opening your second Berkeleys contacted your vendor or if purchased directly through Simpson, us?

If unused and the hair grade was so noticably different in appearance and quality from the original brushes I'm almost certain we or the vendor would have swapped them without hesitation.

It's all well and good dismissing the brushes as rubbish on a forum, no problem at all ... but I just hope we or the vendor was given the opportunity to rectify a problem first - mistakes happen, we are humans not machines Cool

Best regards,

Mark

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 10-01-2012, 10:12 AM
#25
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For sure, but in the new, unused condition the new Berkeley looked awesome. Perfectly shaped, the tips looked okay and honestly - can you tell from an unused brush, how DENSE it is? I can't. The new Berkeley looked really dense when new, but I had to find out by the first watering, that it is a tiny mop (compared to the other Berkeley).
The point is, that I can't distinguish between scritchy and soft when a brush is DRY. All my Simpsons feel (when they are DRY) scritchy on my face, when I brush over my skin with a dry brush. When I use them - they get a certain grade of softness.
So, the only way I can find out if a new, unused brush is soft or scritchy (or even scratchy): I USE IT. And when I have used it - it's too late to swap. Sleepy

Undecided

So, for the proof: Can you tell from looking at this picture - which one of them is the scritchy one? ...impossible to tell?

[Image: 76fddaa2de79144f5b7cce499da21.jpg]

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 10-01-2012, 10:25 AM
#26
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I would be extremely grateful if you could send me the brushes and I'll assess them both for density / weight and material quality.

Many thanks,

Mark

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 10-01-2012, 12:29 PM
#27
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(10-01-2012, 12:08 AM)nav Wrote: Hi Lee,
From your reply, it seems you are suggesting it's OK for a manufacturer to use inferior parts in their product just because supply is not as consistent as they would like.

Having been in the situation personally where I received two Berkeley's that were world's apart, I can tell you I don't care about the supply issues. All I know is that the second Berkeley was just rubbish and I truly felt ripped off. I would never have bought another Simpson brush if it wasn't for thesuperiorshave.com and having the ability to choose actual stock lead me to getting my daily brush.

When Simpson get it right, they really get it right...but when they get it wrong, it's truly bad!

The issue with best badger hair is that it encompasses a very large portion of the badger.

That is all I am saying. There is currently no best hair grade A and best hair grade B. It's just all the hair that isn't silvertip or grey/pure.

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 10-01-2012, 06:00 PM
#28
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(10-01-2012, 06:00 AM)Simpson1919 Wrote: infabo / nav:

I'm presuming you guys on opening your second Berkeleys contacted your vendor or if purchased directly through Simpson, us?

If unused and the hair grade was so noticably different in appearance and quality from the original brushes I'm almost certain we or the vendor would have swapped them without hesitation.

It's all well and good dismissing the brushes as rubbish on a forum, no problem at all ... but I just hope we or the vendor was given the opportunity to rectify a problem first - mistakes happen, we are humans not machines Cool

Best regards,

Mark

Yes I did and was told to send it at my expense and there is no guarantee it would be replaced. I didn't want to pay 20% of my purchase price for shipping (yes, it's expensive from Australia) for a "chance" it will get replaced. Instead, I sold it to a friend for cheap as he wanted a "pure" badger brush as he had too many silvertips. So, I took a loss on it and swore I would never buy another Simpson as I had read quite a few QC issues on the various forums and comments like "it's a gamble" or "you need to take a chance" etc etc.

This was until thesuperiorshave.com came along and I couldn't be happier with my X1. If you want an example, just look at the current stock of X1's and you will see how dark some of the badger hair is. I wouldn't want that anywhere near my face. The vendor has even listed them at a cheaper price than the ones that have lighter tips!!!

It's not about being Human's being machines. Infact, Simpson have some of the most experienced brush makers in the world and I would never have expected such a massive quality variance between the same model of brush.

Lucky I didn't get the crap one first otherwise I would never have considered another Simpson brush but because I got the good Berkeley first, I knew how good a Simpson could be as the first Berkeley was truly awesome, as is my X1 (which I like even more than the good Berkeley!).


(10-01-2012, 12:29 PM)asharperrazor Wrote:
(10-01-2012, 12:08 AM)nav Wrote: Hi Lee,
From your reply, it seems you are suggesting it's OK for a manufacturer to use inferior parts in their product just because supply is not as consistent as they would like.

Having been in the situation personally where I received two Berkeley's that were world's apart, I can tell you I don't care about the supply issues. All I know is that the second Berkeley was just rubbish and I truly felt ripped off. I would never have bought another Simpson brush if it wasn't for thesuperiorshave.com and having the ability to choose actual stock lead me to getting my daily brush.

When Simpson get it right, they really get it right...but when they get it wrong, it's truly bad!

The issue with best badger hair is that it encompasses a very large portion of the badger.

That is all I am saying. There is currently no best hair grade A and best hair grade B. It's just all the hair that isn't silvertip or grey/pure.

One of the big selling points is "hand made/hand sorted" which means smart human beings have control over the grade of the knot and can sort the hair so that a brush doesn't up looking like a scritchy pure badger...which is offered as a proper grade on its own anyway, so the sorting process should seperate the manufacturer's specs of Best and Pure.

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 10-01-2012, 06:46 PM
#29
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(10-01-2012, 10:12 AM)infabo Wrote: For sure, but in the new, unused condition the new Berkeley looked awesome. Perfectly shaped, the tips looked okay and honestly - can you tell from an unused brush, how DENSE it is? I can't. The new Berkeley looked really dense when new, but I had to find out by the first watering, that it is a tiny mop (compared to the other Berkeley).
The point is, that I can't distinguish between scritchy and soft when a brush is DRY. All my Simpsons feel (when they are DRY) scritchy on my face, when I brush over my skin with a dry brush. When I use them - they get a certain grade of softness.
So, the only way I can find out if a new, unused brush is soft or scritchy (or even scratchy): I USE IT. And when I have used it - it's too late to swap. Sleepy

Undecided

So, for the proof: Can you tell from looking at this picture - which one of them is the scritchy one? ...impossible to tell?

That's exactly the problem. How do you expect a maker to be able to differentiate between the super-like and pure-like hairs if you cannot without first lathering up?

(10-01-2012, 06:00 PM)nav Wrote: One of the big selling points is "hand made/hand sorted" which means smart human beings have control over the grade of the knot and can sort the hair so that a brush doesn't up looking like a scritchy pure badger...which is offered as a proper grade on its own anyway, so the sorting process should seperate the manufacturer's specs of Best and Pure.

That's just a marketing ploy. All the hair is sorted by hand. I'm not aware of a knot making machine either. That said, some of the junk hairs are just cut to shape.

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 10-01-2012, 07:45 PM
#30
  • Teiste
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(10-01-2012, 06:00 AM)Simpson1919 Wrote: infabo / nav:

I'm presuming you guys on opening your second Berkeleys contacted your vendor or if purchased directly through Simpson, us?

If unused and the hair grade was so noticably different in appearance and quality from the original brushes I'm almost certain we or the vendor would have swapped them without hesitation.

It's all well and good dismissing the brushes as rubbish on a forum, no problem at all ... but I just hope we or the vendor was given the opportunity to rectify a problem first - mistakes happen, we are humans not machines Cool

Best regards,

Mark

Mark :

I dont think that nobody here would ever called a Simpson brush "rubissh".Pretty far away from being rubbish or bad brushes , and I think that experienced wet shavers know about them.But we all have our likes and dislikes , and it seems Im not the only one who experienced an scratchy like lower grade of pure badger , Berkeley 46.However , mine was a clear 3 banded with kind of white tips.

Also , to wait for a natural product to be or have always the same pattern (wood , badger hair , Ivory ...) its also naive and I have been that naive.Now I understand better that very hard to find two natural products , handmade , exactly the same.This is why I regret so much to have sold some of my Simpson brushes...Facepalm

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 10-01-2012, 09:42 PM
#31
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(10-01-2012, 10:12 AM)infabo Wrote: For sure, but in the new, unused condition the new Berkeley looked awesome. Perfectly shaped, the tips looked okay and honestly - can you tell from an unused brush, how DENSE it is? I can't. The new Berkeley looked really dense when new, but I had to find out by the first watering, that it is a tiny mop (compared to the other Berkeley).
The point is, that I can't distinguish between scritchy and soft when a brush is DRY. All my Simpsons feel (when they are DRY) scritchy on my face, when I brush over my skin with a dry brush. When I use them - they get a certain grade of softness.
So, the only way I can find out if a new, unused brush is soft or scritchy (or even scratchy): I USE IT. And when I have used it - it's too late to swap. Sleepy

Undecided

So, for the proof: Can you tell from looking at this picture - which one of them is the scritchy one? ...impossible to tell?

[Image: 76fddaa2de79144f5b7cce499da21.jpg]

My second Berkeley was nothing like that. It had very dark hair and the quantity in the knot was ~60-70% of the original Berkeley. I was shocked the second I saw it out of the box.

(10-01-2012, 10:12 AM)infabo Wrote: For sure, but in the new, unused condition the new Berkeley looked awesome. Perfectly shaped, the tips looked okay and honestly - can you tell from an unused brush, how DENSE it is? I can't. The new Berkeley looked really dense when new, but I had to find out by the first watering, that it is a tiny mop (compared to the other Berkeley).
The point is, that I can't distinguish between scritchy and soft when a brush is DRY. All my Simpsons feel (when they are DRY) scritchy on my face, when I brush over my skin with a dry brush. When I use them - they get a certain grade of softness.
So, the only way I can find out if a new, unused brush is soft or scritchy (or even scratchy): I USE IT. And when I have used it - it's too late to swap. Sleepy

Undecided

So, for the proof: Can you tell from looking at this picture - which one of them is the scritchy one? ...impossible to tell?

[Image: 76fddaa2de79144f5b7cce499da21.jpg]

My second Berkeley was nothing like that. It had very dark hair and the quantity in the knot was ~60-70% of the original Berkeley. I was shocked the second I saw it out of the box.

Between these two, I would guess that too many bristles were cut trimmed to make them even and this lead to the extra scritch.

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 10-01-2012, 09:53 PM
#32
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I'm going to play the game and say the one on the left. It has more dark tips.

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 10-01-2012, 10:59 PM
#33
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Yes, it was more a rhetoric question: it is the one on the left. When I took the picture it was just brand-new - so still not bloomed. Even you can't see the tips quite clear on the picture - yes - the left one has more darker tips. There are more hairs which are brown until the top (and clipped?). I know the brush makers do a mix, take best hair on the outside (to form the characteristic band-look) and inside the knot they add lower grade hair.

@Mark
Sorry. Never said it is rubbish. Of course we aren't machines, but "Best Badger" should be "Best Badger" and nothing below. "Simpson - Manufacturers of the FINEST Shaving Brushes".
When Mühle is able to deliver hand-made Silvertip brushes at high quality with hardly no variance - why not the "best manufacturer of the finest brushes of the world"? Just wondering.

For example. How can this happen? Look here, Third brush from the right, KH2.
Or, how can this happen?

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 10-01-2012, 11:08 PM
#34
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(10-01-2012, 10:59 PM)infabo Wrote: Yes, it was more a rhetoric question: it is the one on the left. When I took the picture it was just brand-new - so still not bloomed. Even you can't see the tips quite clear on the picture - yes - the left one has more darker tips. There are more hairs which are brown until the top (and clipped?).

I think they're just broken pieces or like that on the animal. They're present in the super grades and in most if not all silvertip grades (only vintage Plisson & bleached hair doesn't have any AFAIK).

Quote:I know the brush makers do a mix, take best hair on the outside (to form the characteristic band-look) and inside the knot they add lower grade hair.

Where did you get that information? Who does that?

Lower quality pure badger hair is very brown & dirty, you would be able to tell if a brush maker collared it.

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 10-01-2012, 11:16 PM
#35
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Maybe it was related to the 2-Band brushes. I apologise, if I didn't remember correctly.

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 10-01-2012, 11:35 PM
#36
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@ infabo:

I really couldn't tell from the picture which would be the more scratchy / scritchy. If I can't tell, I'm pretty sure my knot bundlers would struggle too.

I can also tell you that each knot contains exactly the same amount of hair in terms of weight.

@ nav:

If there was that much of a discrepancy we would have sorted it - I'm fairly certain you are aware of our customer service reputation? Not being given the opportunity and then being bad-mouthed just isn't cricket in my eyes.

@ tieste:

"All I know is that the second Berkeley was just rubbish"

That was nav's direct quote.

All I can tell you guys is that we are constantly working hard to improve QC and make the finest brushes out there. I believe we have taken great strides in the last 3 years since acquiring the business.

We can't win them all.

Mark

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 10-01-2012, 11:49 PM
#37
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(10-01-2012, 11:35 PM)Simpson1919 Wrote: .................
We can't win them all.

Mark

Well you certainly won me over with your Duke 3 2-Band and Chubby 2 2-Band Cool

Just sorry, that Chris from Shaving.ie can't sell them any more, since they are always sold out at the official Simpson shop Sad

Hope you perhaps can make me an offer for a Chubby 3 2-band ButterScotch and a Duke 3 3-Band in Jade..... Biggrin

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 10-02-2012, 12:22 AM
#38
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(10-01-2012, 11:35 PM)Simpson1919 Wrote: @ infabo:

I really couldn't tell from the picture which would be the more scratchy / scritchy. If I can't tell, I'm pretty sure my knot bundlers would struggle too.

I can also tell you that each knot contains exactly the same amount of hair in terms of weight.

Sry if it didn't come across, but that is what I was telling you by posting this picture. When I took the Berkeley out of his box the first time, I couldn't tell if it will be scritchy or not. I also can't write a prophylactic mail to the shop where I bought it: "Hi there, maybe you can replace my Berkeley because it MAY be scritchy when I'm going to use it for the first time". That's how processes are not working.
You say, I could have swapped the brush when still unused.......again: I have to feel the brush on my face before I can tell if it has scritch or not. Feeling a dry brush doesn't work well, as all my Simpsons feel some kind of scritchy when dry (and get soft when wet). Once used - I'm out and no dealer in the world will exchange me a brush once used.

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 10-02-2012, 04:36 AM
#39
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To get back on topic, my Eagle G3 and my Berkeley are two of the softest brushes I have ever used. They even share a slight orange tint to their tips. My 56, Rover and Chubby are less soft, but still superior to most. They share the typical Simpson Best coloring at the tips. I think that it's just natural variances in batches of badger hair.

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 10-02-2012, 07:30 AM
#40
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Thank you for bringing us back. I started this thread because I was intrigued by what I perceived as differences in best grade hair among the three Simpsons that I purchased this year. I'd rather not see this tun into the complain about the brush I bought thread as that certainly wasn't my intent.
(10-02-2012, 04:36 AM)mcgils Wrote: To get back on topic, my Eagle G3 and my Berkeley are two of the softest brushes I have ever used. They even share a slight orange tint to their tips. My 56, Rover and Chubby are less soft, but still superior to most. They share the typical Simpson Best coloring at the tips. I think that it's just natural variances in batches of badger hair.

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