10-10-2020, 06:37 PM
#1
  • Shaun
  • Senior Member
  • St Peters, NSW, Australia
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Hello fellow members.

Does anyone happen to have an image or images of a preferably Vulfix/grey box era PJ3 brush in Best Badger but aligned with others or other common Simpson varieties so a comparison can be made?

Also, anyone havee experience with a Best PJ3 compared to a Super or 2-Band? 

I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts and views.

Thanks in advance.

Shaun

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 10-10-2020, 10:53 PM
#2
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(10-10-2020, 06:37 PM)Shaun Wrote: Hello fellow members.

Does anyone happen to have an image or images of a preferably Vulfix/grey box era PJ3 brush in Best Badger but aligned with others or other common Simpson varieties so a comparison can be made?

Also, anyone havee experience with a Best PJ3 compared to a Super or 2-Band? 

I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts and views.

Thanks in advance.

Shaun

Hi Shaun

There is a pic on page 38 of the Simpson appreciation thread of a PJ3 grey box too.

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 10-10-2020, 11:00 PM
#3
  • Shaun
  • Senior Member
  • St Peters, NSW, Australia
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(10-10-2020, 10:53 PM)DJ-SteveD Wrote:
(10-10-2020, 06:37 PM)Shaun Wrote: Hello fellow members.

Does anyone happen to have an image or images of a preferably Vulfix/grey box era PJ3 brush in Best Badger but aligned with others or other common Simpson varieties so a comparison can be made?

Also, anyone havee experience with a Best PJ3 compared to a Super or 2-Band? 

I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts and views.

Thanks in advance.

Shaun

Hi Shaun

There is a pic on page 38 of the Simpson appreciation thread of a PJ3 grey box too.
Hmm. Looks to me it only goes to p.17...

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 10-11-2020, 03:32 AM
#4
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(10-10-2020, 06:37 PM)Shaun Wrote: Hello fellow members.

Does anyone happen to have an image or images of a preferably Vulfix/grey box era PJ3 brush in Best Badger but aligned with others or other common Simpson varieties so a comparison can be made?

Also, anyone havee experience with a Best PJ3 compared to a Super or 2-Band? 

I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts and views.

Thanks in advance.

Shaun
Hi Shaun,
This is my Grey Box PJ3.
Ultra-soft, luxurious knot with good flow-through and medium backbone. Thinner hair than comparative Super-Badger, but no less good. The Two-Bands actually have much more scrub. For feel, go with the Best (NOT, the current offering). For looks, go for the Two Band.
[Image: quw7Egp.jpg]

[Image: gG3DtA4.jpg]

[Image: WNUs4WN.jpg]

[Image: wE5lwSb.jpg]

[Image: HKn8qnJ.jpg]

[Image: qQPg0NV.jpg]

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 10-11-2020, 04:26 AM
#5
  • Shaun
  • Senior Member
  • St Peters, NSW, Australia
User Info
(10-11-2020, 03:32 AM)primotenore Wrote:
(10-10-2020, 06:37 PM)Shaun Wrote: Hello fellow members.

Does anyone happen to have an image or images of a preferably Vulfix/grey box era PJ3 brush in Best Badger but aligned with others or other common Simpson varieties so a comparison can be made?

Also, anyone havee experience with a Best PJ3 compared to a Super or 2-Band? 

I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts and views.

Thanks in advance.

Shaun
Hi Shaun,
This is my Grey Box PJ3.
Ultra-soft, luxurious knot with good flow-through and medium backbone. Thinner hair than comparative Super-Badger, but no less good. The Two-Bands actually have much more scrub. For feel, go with the Best (NOT, the current offering). For looks, go for the Two Band.
[Image: quw7Egp.jpg]

[Image: gG3DtA4.jpg]

[Image: WNUs4WN.jpg]

[Image: wE5lwSb.jpg]

[Image: HKn8qnJ.jpg]

[Image: qQPg0NV.jpg]
How absolutely wonderful! Exactly what I was looking for, and so much more beside! 

Thank you Primo! I couldn’t have asked for more. 

Beautiful collection, too!

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 10-11-2020, 04:53 AM
#6
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(10-11-2020, 04:26 AM)Shaun Wrote:
(10-11-2020, 03:32 AM)primotenore Wrote:
(10-10-2020, 06:37 PM)Shaun Wrote: Hello fellow members.

Does anyone happen to have an image or images of a preferably Vulfix/grey box era PJ3 brush in Best Badger but aligned with others or other common Simpson varieties so a comparison can be made?

Also, anyone havee experience with a Best PJ3 compared to a Super or 2-Band? 

I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts and views.

Thanks in advance.

Shaun
Hi Shaun,
This is my Grey Box PJ3.
Ultra-soft, luxurious knot with good flow-through and medium backbone. Thinner hair than comparative Super-Badger, but no less good. The Two-Bands actually have much more scrub. For feel, go with the Best (NOT, the current offering). For looks, go for the Two Band.
[Image: quw7Egp.jpg]

[Image: gG3DtA4.jpg]

[Image: WNUs4WN.jpg]

[Image: wE5lwSb.jpg]

[Image: HKn8qnJ.jpg]

[Image: qQPg0NV.jpg]
How absolutely wonderful! Exactly what I was looking for, and so much more beside! 

Thank you Primo! I couldn’t have asked for more. 

Beautiful collection, too!
Biggrin

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 10-12-2020, 10:07 AM
#7
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(10-10-2020, 11:00 PM)Shaun Wrote:
(10-10-2020, 10:53 PM)DJ-SteveD Wrote:
(10-10-2020, 06:37 PM)Shaun Wrote: Hello fellow members.

Does anyone happen to have an image or images of a preferably Vulfix/grey box era PJ3 brush in Best Badger but aligned with others or other common Simpson varieties so a comparison can be made?

Also, anyone havee experience with a Best PJ3 compared to a Super or 2-Band? 

I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts and views.

Thanks in advance.

Shaun

Hi Shaun

There is a pic on page 38 of the Simpson appreciation thread of a PJ3 grey box too.
Hmm. Looks to me it only goes to p.17...

Here it is

http://shavenook.com/showthread.php?tid=39357&page=38

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 10-12-2020, 12:11 PM
#8
  • Shaun
  • Senior Member
  • St Peters, NSW, Australia
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(10-12-2020, 10:07 AM)DJ-SteveD Wrote:
(10-10-2020, 11:00 PM)Shaun Wrote:
(10-10-2020, 10:53 PM)DJ-SteveD Wrote: Hi Shaun

There is a pic on page 38 of the Simpson appreciation thread of a PJ3 grey box too.
Hmm. Looks to me it only goes to p.17...

Here it is

http://shavenook.com/showthread.php?tid=39357&page=38

I know about the thread, and I have posted in it in the past, but I can see no page 38, and neither can I see a picture of a Persian Jar number 3 in Best Badger with a grey box. The link goes to page 1 of the thread. And that’s it. I have been through every page. I can’t see the reference you are pointing me to, sorry.

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 10-12-2020, 04:45 PM
#9
  • chazt
  • Shimmer of Techs
  • Queens, NY
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Perhaps if the gentleman referred to a particular post # that would help.

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 10-12-2020, 11:18 PM
#10
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I did not want to post the pic as it is not mine to post.

Not sure why I see 38 pages either maybe I have a different view to Shaun but here it is. post number #754

https://i.imgur.com/FpGx9Sw.jpg

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 10-12-2020, 11:39 PM
#11
  • Shaun
  • Senior Member
  • St Peters, NSW, Australia
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(10-12-2020, 11:18 PM)DJ-SteveD Wrote: I did not want to post the pic as it is not mine to post.

Not sure why I see 38 pages either maybe I have a different view to Shaun but here it is. post number #754

https://i.imgur.com/FpGx9Sw.jpg

Ah! Primo...

Page 16

It appears that if you are NOT signed in: P38. How weird is that?

Thank you DJ

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 11-05-2020, 12:28 AM
#12
  • Shaun
  • Senior Member
  • St Peters, NSW, Australia
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Well, here is the thing. Today I received a Grey/Gray Box era PJ3 in Best, but what an astonishingly handsome brush!

I have never seen such a deep buttery resin on a Simpson. I can only conclude that this is the remaining, sold-on old Somerset rod stock (not Catalin) which the new makers had to both learn how to turn and use up. I’d suggest this brush dates to 2008. This comes after the cessation of the use of lamp black. Call it a ‘transition’ brush. 

The dimensions are impressive, as is the loft. The hair is VERY fine at the tips, and the knot is an impressive 27.5, unlike the modern offering of 24. Loft height is 54; handle 58. Total height 112.

Some images:
[Image: R2nf3wx.jpg]
[Image: Z54B6xx.jpg][Image: lFWc42I.jpg]

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 11-05-2020, 03:01 AM
#13
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(11-05-2020, 12:28 AM)Shaun Wrote: Well, here is the thing. Today I received a Grey/Gray Box era PJ3 in Best, but what an astonishingly handsome brush!

I have never seen such a deep buttery resin on a Simpson. I can only conclude that this is the remaining, sold-on old Somerset rod stock (not Catalin) which the new makers had to both learn how to turn and use up. I’d suggest this brush dates to 2008. This comes after the cessation of the use of lamp black. Call it a ‘transition’ brush. 

The dimensions are impressive, as is the loft. The hair is VERY fine at the tips, and the knot is an impressive 27.5, unlike the modern offering of 24. Loft height is 54; handle 58. Total height 112.

Some images:
[Image: R2nf3wx.jpg]
[Image: Z54B6xx.jpg][Image: lFWc42I.jpg]
Beautiful brush, Shaun.

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 11-08-2020, 05:07 PM
#14
  • ChiefBroom
  • Chief of Dark Holler
  • North Central Colorado, USA
User Info
(10-10-2020, 06:37 PM)Shaun Wrote: Hello fellow members.
Does anyone happen to have an image or images of a preferably Vulfix/grey box era PJ3 brush in Best Badger but aligned with others or other common Simpson varieties so a comparison can be made?
Also, anyone have experience with a Best PJ3 compared to a Super or 2-Band?
I’d be most interested in hearing your thoughts and views.
Thanks in advance.
(11-05-2020, 12:28 AM)Shaun Wrote: Well, here is the thing. Today I received a Grey/Gray Box era PJ3 in Best, but what an astonishingly handsome brush!
I have never seen such a deep buttery resin on a Simpson. I can only conclude that this is the remaining, sold-on old Somerset rod stock (not Catalin) which the new makers had to both learn how to turn and use up. I’d suggest this brush dates to 2008. This comes after the cessation of the use of lamp black. Call it a ‘transition’ brush.
The dimensions are impressive, as is the loft. The hair is VERY fine at the tips, and the knot is an impressive 27.5, unlike the modern offering of 24. Loft height is 54; handle 58. Total height 112.

Shaun called this thread to my attention via PM a couple of days ago and invited me to share any relevant perspective I might have to offer. I’ll contribute what I have, but should first say that given the topic of discussion is a Vulfix-era Simpson brush, I regard Mark Watterson as the most qualified person to speak to it. The first question I would ask him is whether Progress Shaving Brush (Vulfix) Limited acquired any inventory including brushes, empty handles, and/or rod stock when they purchased the Simpson brand in May 2008.

My understanding (see http://shavenook.com/showthread.php?tid=...8#pid23258) is that after David Carter and Francis Woodhouse acquired ownership of the Simpson shaving brush business in 1990, manufacturing operations were moved from Nimmer Mill on the River Lsle to Ilminster a few miles to the north. Both locations are in Somerset county, so it’s probably best when discussing so-called Somerset-era Simpson shaving brushes to be clear about intended meaning. As churchillafemme observed in the post linked above, some people include brushes of the Carter/Woodhouse years (1990-2008) in the definition of Somerset brushes, while others include only brushes made by the Simpson family, prior to 1991. And now we’re talking about Progress/Vulfix-era Simpson brushes possibly made with Somerset-era components.

I think the first time I came across the word Somerset used in connection with any shaving brush was on The Superior Shave website sometime in 2012. Jerrod Connerty established The Superior Shave in 2009. He had a bricks-and-mortar store in Jacksonville, FL as well as a website. And he had a jaw-dropping inventory of Simpson brushes, presumably sourced directly from Progress/Vulfix. As far as I know, Jerrod was the first to post both front, back, and top-down photos of every brush he offered for sale (at least all the Simpons) along with loft specifications. His approach to representing brushes heavily influenced ours when we developed our website.

In 2013 the Simpsons Shaving Brushes page on The Superior Shave website included 13 references to Somerset, all applied in description of various handles. Notably, Jerrod identified two types of Somerset stock: yellowed and rose shaded. Both colorations were believed by Jerrod to have resulted from aging over decades. I didn’t question that explanation at the time, but I no longer believe it to be factual.

This thread is about a buttery (or yellowish) handled PJ3. I have more information and experience related to the rose shaded variety of Somerset handle stock. What I’ll say here is that I have reason to believe with high confidence that the rose-shaded handle stock was sourced by Francis Woodhouse from GPS Agencies in England until sometime in the later stage of Carter-Woodhouse-era Simpson, subsequent to which Frank McKinroy had an arrangement with GPS to purchase the material on a bespoken basis for use in producing handles commissioned by Lee Sabini. That agreement expired after Frank’s retirement in late 2013, and we resurrected the material on a bespoken basis in 2015.

This all leaves the questions when, how, and by whom yellowed Somerset handle stock came into use. I don’t recall ever seeing any discussion of that, and I’ve never given it any thought before now. Again, I’d start by asking Mark Watterson. And Matt Roff at GPS Agencies might also be a good person to ask, especially if the material pre-dates the Progress/Vulfix-era.

Now I’ll post some photos and explanatory text from a version of the The Superior Shave website cached by Google on October 20, 2013. (It took me a while to find these up on an archived hard drive.)
 
First, here’s a photo of Jarrod’s inventory (with lots of gray boxes!) that appears to have been taken on June 16, 2012. There are also some red boxes on the other side of the rack.

[Image: simpsons_melange_0824.jpg]

Next is a photo of three Keyholes taken on November 3, 2011. I’m including this because I think it provides the best side-by-side comparison of yellowed vs. rose-shaded Somerset handle stock. Jarrod’s description is inserted beneath the photo (centered and italicized).

[Image: simpsons_keyhole1_2.jpg]

Three pieces available, #1 at left and #3 at right
[Weight and measurements deleted]
All three are 'Somerset era' handle stock, #1 obviously quite yellowed and 2/3 a bit rose-shaded from the decades(only the HANDLE STOCK's old, NOT the turning/stamping)

And finally, here are photos of PJ3s with Jarrod’s labels and descriptions similarly inserted above and below each set. NOTE LOFTS. The photos date to October 24, 2012.

Persian Jar PJ3 Best Badger Actual stock images below...

[Image: pj3b_1024_1s.jpg]
[Image: pj3b_1024_2s.jpg]

ABOVE:  Persian Jar PJ3 Best Badger Stock
Sample #1 is at the FAR LEFT
Sample #7 is at the FAR RIGHT
~41x57mm (WxH) Handles
Weight/Approximate knot dim. in first pic
 
Below: Persian Jar PJ3 Super Badger actual stock images...

[Image: pj3s_1107_1s.jpg]
[Image: pj3s_1107_2s.jpg]

ABOVE:  PJ3 Super Badger Stock
Sample #1 is at the FAR LEFT
Sample #5 is at the FAR RIGHT
~42x57mm (WxH) Handles
If it does not show well in the images, all (but especially #2/#5) have yellower hue than "modern" Simpsons handle rod stock
Weight/Approximate knot dim. in first pic

I may comment further, but will just post this for now and see what others might have to say. I hope Mark will chime in.

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 11-08-2020, 05:23 PM
#15
  • ChiefBroom
  • Chief of Dark Holler
  • North Central Colorado, USA
User Info
I should add the following paragraph excerpted from The Superior Shave website circa 2013. Jerrod Connerty put a phenomenal amount time and effort into his Simpsons Brushes page. It was a rich resource that many others, including me, freely mined. He deserves enduring credit and appreciation for his contribution to the wet-shaving community, particularly those of us who care about the fine details.

"As Simpsons brush buyers are, ahem, a frequently particular lot, we list many models INDIVIDUALLY!  It consumes unimaginably enormous quantities of office time (~400 office-hrs worth in 2012, imagine all the other ways that time-money could have been spent...we MUST try and chisel a few bucks more out of ya'll for this SERVICE if we can!)  But it would be my dream were I the consumer, and you'll know exactly what you're getting.  Please don't pretend that not seeing such pictures as these and paying less is as simple as buying the same commodity for less; all the others know darn well what we're doing, and wisely have chosen to avoid individually-photographing stocks for naturally-varied items.  We've remained the sole vendor doing it this way for almost 3 years now, and I'll go out on a sturdy limb to wager there's at least 3 more exclusive sun-spins ahead of us...because it is a damn quagmire.  I chuckle reading "If you look at sites showing the individual Simpsons stock, you'll see..." on brush-centric internet discussions.  Please correct me if there's another outfit doing it this way, as they surely deserve a tip of the cap.  Trust what falls beyond the next semicolon as being derived with all too much experience; to the ardent addicts, individually photographing your stuff will convince them not to buy your inventory far more often than the contrary!"

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 11-08-2020, 05:27 PM
#16
  • Shaun
  • Senior Member
  • St Peters, NSW, Australia
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This is a wonderfully rich repository of information, Ken, and so comprehensive in analysis supported with background knowledge. And yes, it does leave open the question of the source and use of the yellow ‘Somerset’ material. Intriguing stuff. As you say, Mark W may well have some interesting contribution to make here.

One thing to note is that behind the Simpson decal on my whopper of a brush, the handle retains the more original white hue. This indicates to me that the material has in fact yellowed over time, and is not the colour of the handle material per se. At an earlier point on related discussions regarding the pink shade, I decided the opposite is the case. It may be, however, that the yellow is a sign of ageing (which I like a great deal) and the pink is more the actual colour of the material? All speculative.

Ken, a great post. Thank you. Wonderful. .

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 11-08-2020, 05:46 PM
#17
  • ChiefBroom
  • Chief of Dark Holler
  • North Central Colorado, USA
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(11-08-2020, 05:27 PM)Shaun Wrote: This is a wonderfully rich repository of information, Ken, and so  comprehensive in analysis supported with background knowledge. And yes, it does leave open the question of the source and use of the yellow ‘Somerset’ material. Intriguing stuff. As you say, Mark W may well have some interesting contribution to make here.

One thing to note is that behind the Simpson decal on my whopper of a brush, the handle retains the more original white hue. This indicates to me that the material has in fact yellowed over time, and is not the colour of the handle material per se. At an earlier point on related discussions regarding the pink shade, I decided the opposite is the case. It may be, however, that the yellow is a sign of ageing (which I like a great deal) and the pink is more the actual colour of the material? All speculative.

Ken, a great post. Thank you. Wonderful. .

Thanks.

I obviously couldn't see behind the label, but from your photo the buttery (with a hint of caramel) color appeared to be just slightly variegated. That also suggested to me some change over time. I have butterscotch handles with that effect. I didn't mention it before because I really couldn't tell for sure from the photos.

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 11-08-2020, 05:59 PM
#18
  • Shaun
  • Senior Member
  • St Peters, NSW, Australia
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Indeed, yes. I wonder what the handle material actually is? I don’t really understand the difference between acrylic and polyester resin, if it falls into that chemical classification. No great matter, but may help us understand these things a little better.

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 11-08-2020, 06:16 PM
#19
  • ChiefBroom
  • Chief of Dark Holler
  • North Central Colorado, USA
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(11-08-2020, 05:59 PM)Shaun Wrote: Indeed, yes. I wonder what the handle material actually is? I don’t really understand the difference between acrylic and polyester resin, if it falls into that chemical classification. No great matter, but may help us understand these things a little better.

It's chemistry, and I'm not a chemist. But I'm sure your PJ3 isnt' acrylic. The pink-tinged material that Carter-Wooodhouse Simpson sourced from GPS before Frank McInroy picked it up for use in producing handles for Lee Sabini, and which we now turn is a polyester that I have been given to believe (and have no reason to doubt) is manufactured in Italy.

I thought it was important for me to set out my different opinion in relation to it with regard to color instability before posting Jerrod's photos and descriptions. I have no clue about where or how the material used to make your handle fits in the story in relation to Jerrod's yellowed Somerset. But now I'm interested to know more. I think Mark and GPS are probably the best sources. I'd love to track down David Carter and/or Francis Woodhouse, but I'm the the opportunity for that might have passed. I hunted for Stan Archer a few years ago and found an obituary.

Gary Young is still out there, but I don't think these are materials that were used by the family-era Simpson, that is unless your handle was turned from Catalin. There's a way to test for that, but I don't remember what it is, and I'm researched out for the day.

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 11-09-2020, 08:01 AM
#20
  • ChiefBroom
  • Chief of Dark Holler
  • North Central Colorado, USA
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