01-16-2021, 01:24 PM
#1
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I haven't seen any threads discussing this razor here, yet.  Anyone else tried one?  Thoughts?

(ModEdit: Video removed in accordance with rules 8 and 9)

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 01-17-2021, 08:16 AM
#2
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Another rip-off stealing others’ r&d.
Makes me want to vomit.

Hopefully all the happy buyers don’t loose their jobs as their employers’ products get made in China with zero respect to environment or working conditions and at a fraction of costs.

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 01-17-2021, 11:39 AM
#3
  • garyg
  • Senior Member
  • Great Lakes
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+1 - I really hate the fakeness that the razor epitomizes, and on that basis alone wouldn't be likely to contribute to the counterfeiter's coffers.  I also have noticed on another forum reports that not only is it a rip-off of another firm's design but a poorly executed one as well, though the results are mixed.

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 01-17-2021, 03:36 PM
#4
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I absolutely understand and respect that stance.

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 01-18-2021, 03:34 AM
#5
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Thank you for your understanding and respect.

As a Christian, you may recall “thou shalt not steal”.

What is your stance? You do not care?

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 01-18-2021, 04:05 AM
#6
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Don't attack the OP for asking a question. Last time I checked there's no law against that.

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 01-18-2021, 08:18 AM
#7
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It's one thing to reproduce something that isn't made any more but the Muhle is readily available.  I paid $17 for the head when I bought from a vendor in Ireland.

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 01-18-2021, 11:49 AM
#8
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Primo, I did and do not attack for asking a question.
Garrett had asked for thoughts, so I wrote down mine.
He wrote that he understands my and others’ stance.
I have to admit having problems understanding his stance.
So I asked, as there seemed to be a contradiction. 
That was what I “attacked”, if you want to call it so.

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 01-18-2021, 01:29 PM
#9
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(01-18-2021, 11:49 AM)apogee. Wrote: Primo, I did and do not attack for asking a question.
Garrett had asked for thoughts, so I wrote down mine.
He wrote that he understands my and others’ stance.
I have to admit having problems understanding his stance.
So I asked, as there seemed to be a contradiction. 
That was what I “attacked”, if you want to call it so.
"Attacked" was too strong of a word, I admit. My apologies. 

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 01-18-2021, 01:54 PM
#10
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I don't want to get into a debate, but since you've asked for my thoughts, I'll try to present them as thoroughly as I can.

The Chinese market (and often the Indian market as well) does not have the same copyright views as the United States.  That's a fact, and it's one that all modern razor makers are well aware of.  Does that make it ok?  Maybe not, but it's reality.  I firmly believe that a good razor maker, especially one as established as Muhle, takes that into account when pricing and marketing their goods.

As for your questioning my personal integrity, I would not have purchased the Z0 if I didn't already own the R41.  Hence, Muhle didn't lose out on any business from me because I bought the Z0 instead of the R41.  I have avoided clones in the past for the very reason that I wasn't willing to buy one unless I owned the original.  

I had some of these discussions with Matt Pisarcik when Pearl came out with the Flexi.  I don't believe the existence of these clones is going to significantly eat into the original manufacturer's bottom line.  There are some direct clones that are nearly identical to the originals that might attract a little bit of business away from the original, but I don't believe it's very much.  

The Z0, like the Flexi, is not an identical copy of the original.  They have different materials.  They shave differently.  The finishing on the Muhle is still noticeably superior.  The R41 is around $35, the Z0 is twice that.  I think the people who want an R41 won't pass on it because of the existence of the Z0.  The people who pass on the R41, either because of how aggressive it is, or because it's made of zamack, wouldn't have bought the R41 anyway.  The Z0, because of how aggressive it is, is also serving a noticeably smaller niche within the traditional shaving world than many other clones.

Overall, I try to choose an abundant mindset.  I don't believe there's a finite amount of business to be had and that these clones are going to take it all away from the original makers.  I listen to a lot of Seth Godin, and I've included a quote of his that seems relevant to this conversation.  

I'm curious what your thoughts are on someone like Razorock.  At one point Joe openly admitted that the Gamechanger and the Lupo were in effect copies of Wolfman variants.

“Abundance and scarcity In a society where value is created by the manufacture of goods or the allocation of limited resources, it’s not a surprise that organizations seek scarcity. We hesitate to share, because if I give you this, then I don’t have it any more. We erect barriers and create rules to make it difficult for some people to have access to these limited resources. While we don’t set out to become miserly, it’s an economic instinct, because what’s yours is no long mine. Even though we give lip service to sharing when kids show up for kindergarten classes, most of school is organized around the same ideas. We rank students, we cut players from the roster, we grade on a curve. Success, we teach, is scarce. Our new economy, though, is based on abundance, the abundance that comes from ideas and access. If I benefit when everyone knows my idea, then the more people I give the idea to, the better we all do. If I benefit when I earn a reputation leading, connecting and creating positive change, then I’ll benefit if I can offer these insights to anyone who can benefit from them. With an abundance mindset, we intentionally create goods that can be shared. It’s not based on our traditional factory-based economy, but it works now (in fact, it’s just about all that works)… engaging with the mesh, building communities that benefit from sharing resources instead of destroying them is a strategy that scales. With an abundance mindset, we create ideas and services that do better when people share.” - Seth Godin

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 01-18-2021, 03:38 PM
#11
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Didn't realize they were machined from stainless steel.  That would make intellectual property arguments somewhat moot as it is a different material.  In addition even though it looks similar, if it shaves differently then it's just another safety razor.

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 01-18-2021, 09:39 PM
#12
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My thoughts on Wolfman and Razorock?

I assume Wolfman razors are very fine tools. Beautifully made and performance likewise, as we can read in these pages.
Unfortunately I will not use one as their pricing is beyond what I am willing to pay.

Razorock?
I am old enough to remember the Razorock “Hawk” and a series of clone soaps as well.
I despise a business model based on theft of design and ideas.

@bkatbamna: when you rebuild a product with other materials, imo this is still a theft of the design.

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 01-19-2021, 11:53 AM
#13
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(01-18-2021, 09:39 PM)apogee. Wrote: @bkatbamna: when you rebuild a product with other materials, imo this is still a theft of the design.

Every safety razor could be considered a theft of the design of Gillette safety razors(or some other company's). Personally I wouldn't buy it but if it shaves different then it is different(unless of course, they've printed "Muhle" on it or something).

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 01-19-2021, 11:59 AM
#14
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(01-19-2021, 11:53 AM)bkatbamna Wrote:
(01-18-2021, 09:39 PM)apogee. Wrote: @bkatbamna: when you rebuild a product with other materials, imo this is still a theft of the design.

Every safety razor could be considered a theft of the design of Gillette safety razors(or some other company's). Personally I wouldn't buy it but if it shaves different then it is different(unless of course, they've printed "Muhle" on it or something).
Excellent point. There are clones of everything out there. If your scruples prevent you from purchasing a copy, so be it. 

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 01-19-2021, 12:45 PM
#15
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Time to leave this forum.

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 01-19-2021, 01:36 PM
#16
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(01-19-2021, 12:45 PM)apogee. Wrote: Time to leave this forum.


I don't think anyone wants that.  A bit of friendly discussion and sharing all of our individual viewpoints is what forums are all about.

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 01-19-2021, 02:19 PM
#17
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Hello,

this is my first posting here and I regret that the interesting topic got derailed so much and angered a veteran user. A pity, as this razor is worth talking about.

I started shaving with a Mühle R89, the R89/DE89 are frequently recommended for beginners. But I didn't particularly like it, as it was not thorough enough. I didn't get a better shave than with a cartridge razor after several tries and changes to technique, razor blades, soap...

I jumped the shark and bought a R41 - and boy, I love(d) it!
While it is an aggressive razor, it is fair: Don't make a mistake, and it won't bite. Make a mistake, you will get notified. You won't miss this particular notification for sure.
Hehe, joking aside, it was a very good teacher at shaving. Years later I now think it is too aggressive for its efficiency, you can be efficient without having to be like the R41.

I broke my first R41 after ... 2-3 years use maybe. The thread broke off the cap. I got a replacement  from Mühle after sending them a mail, as I bought directly from them.
Then I read wetshaving forums and tried several other razors, like the Mühle Rocca and soon made it a habit to collect the more expensive stainless steel razors.

The problem is: Mühle is not going to make a R41 in stainless steel anytime soon. Zamac is fine, but I would really love a stainless steel version.
DSCosmetic is quite a copycat company. If you look at their razors, they even copied from other copycats.
But as this upset some posters in this thread a lot, I don't want to focus on that and rather talk about the razor compared to the R41:

It's a damn near perfect copy, maybe a bit more aggressive even. It has the same harsh quality to it as the R41, which maybe was emphasized by me using it with a different handle: I got a fancier ("Destroyer") handle for it instead of the Mühle handle clone. Which turned out to be a mistake, the handles of this company are super heavy weight and they are usually polished a lot, so the knurls had almost no grip. Despite a grippy looking handle it was pretty slippery. Funnily I got another of their razors, the X1, with another handle that is all shine and polish ("Pioneer") and this one has better grip due to its shape.

The Z0 is going to be followed by a Z1, presumably. They mentioned flaws and not so perfect finish and sell or sold it at a reduced price. My razor seems to have been spared really bad flaws, it also shaves very much like the R41. So if someone wants a R41 in stainless steel: Get it or wait for the supposedly coming perfect version. I just assume that it will be called Z1, no guarantee.

The portfolio of DSCosmetic is very "Asian" for lack of a better word, meaning their zamac and SS heads are of the mild to at max medium aggressiveness type. This style is preferred by Feather for their razors, too, they just combine them with wicked sharp blades.

Shipping was not as fast as it could be. DSCosmetic used standard Aliexpress shipping. If I can I try to get the shipping option "Yanwen Special Line" which has way better tracking and is also faster, usually costs little or nothing more. They don't offer that.

If you really love the R41, this is a worthy SS version already in the Z0 version.
Depending on your location it might be cheaper than a Mühle R41 original, if you just want to give the supposed "beast" a try, I would let shipping speed decide.

Edit: some extra info: Machining is roughly Razorock level with more emphasis put on polishing the handles.

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