10-27-2012, 09:44 AM
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I meant to post the below last night, but just did not get around to it. I've spent some time thinking about how a ton of "facts" seem to contradict each other in the other threads regarding these two products.

We have people saying they are "the same"
We have a twitter picture showing XXX in front of a generic brown box labeled AdP
We have contradictory ingredient lists
The above contradiction carries an implication that either XXX was not made for AdP, or Joe is mislabeling his product which in my mind makes no sense as the risks are too high and the penalties too severe for him to do that

Finally there is yet another mention of XXX just flat out going away never to be made again.

Full disclosure, I am an engineer, I work in IT, I have years of experience in the manufacturing environment, I understand fully what is involved with FDA and USDA compliance

Last night on the way to the store (I always get my best ideas driving) the following theory hit me. This was written last night, please forgive any duplications of material in the text

_____________________________________________________________________

I have a theory I would like to present to everyone. It is only a personal theory based upon lots of anecdotal evidence and my time working in manufacturing.

There has been a ton of discussion in this thread regarding how ingredient lists can be different for XXX and for AdP and yet have them be the same item. I think we can all agree Joe is a stand up guy and most people here have faith in him. So how can people claim XXX and AdP are the same, and have the ingredient list be different? Also how can the lists be different and not have one of the two producers knowingly put an invalid label on their product (whether it be Joe or cosmetics giant AdP)?

This is only my pure speculation and is strictly based upon my time in a manufacturing environment.

In the world of 3rd party manufacturing, it is the actual manufacturers who eek out the slimmest of profits. A pallet of a product may only give the manufacturer a couple dollars profit when all is said and done. Volume is the way to make money in this instance.

The other way to make money is to lower costs. For my company it was lowering labor costs and food ingredient costs. Our test kitchens would on occasion re-work a client’s recipe to remain within their specifications, yet squeeze out just a bit more profit out of a run. We’d do a small batch run by hand, present it to the client and based upon feedback either toss the recipe or have them accept it for a real test. Real testing meant we’d have to run the new recipe on a real production run. i.e. mass produced. That test run would happen, a certain allotment would be given to the client who would either approve or disapprove the new recipe and the rest of the run would be put into the deep freezer shrink wrapped individually but not boxed as due to recipe changes the ingredient list on the box would not be correct and therefore we could not sell it.

Twice a year (4th of July and Christmas) these products would be either offered for free to employees (Christmas give away) or sold at nuts-o prices (i.e $5 for all you could take (the July 4 time)).

In my mind I can envision a manufacturer attempting to control costs by going to oh let’s say AdP and saying, we believe we have a more cost effective way to make your product. AdP may say, ok, do a test run and ship some to us. The company would then do a test run, submit x number of generic tubs to AdP and perhaps AdP tests it out and decides it does not meet their standards. (Most ingredient re-works in my experience do not meet the client’s specifications) Now the manufacturer has a production run of something which smells just like AdP, lathers just like AdP, was made for AdP, has boxes labeled AdP, but whose ingredient list is different from AdP’s packaged ingredient list. What’s a manufacturer to do with all this excess product. What can they do with it to make up some of the costs of the run? Hmmmmm, if only someone out there would want this product.

Anyway, this is pure speculation on my part based upon my experiences in manufacturing. People may draw their own ideas from the above, they may disagree with it, they may say “that is not what happened” but it is one theory which somehow ties ALL of the disjointed and seemingly unresolvable issues up in one neat and tidy package. I think it also neatly explains why there will be no more XXX

Again, pure speculation on my part.

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 10-27-2012, 09:57 AM
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  • greyhawk
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(10-27-2012, 09:44 AM)wingdo Wrote: Last night on the way to the store (I always get my best ideas driving) the following theory hit me.

Doug, you must have an awfully long commute. Tongue

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 10-27-2012, 10:01 AM
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(10-27-2012, 09:57 AM)greyhawk Wrote:
(10-27-2012, 09:44 AM)wingdo Wrote: Last night on the way to the store (I always get my best ideas driving) the following theory hit me.

Doug, you must have an awfully long commute. Tongue

Well to be honest, the entire thought at that time was "test run". It just takes a lot more words to describe what that means in the world of manufacturing and why changes may happen.

BTW, the changes may also be initiated by the client for a test run.

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 10-27-2012, 10:34 AM
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  • greyhawk
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Of course I was just kidding you. I wouldn't be surprised if at least part of your theory was true.

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 10-27-2012, 10:51 AM
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Doug,

Your theory is incorrect; but it was fun reading it.

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 10-27-2012, 11:03 AM
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So what you are saying is both parties are correct? XXX is theoretically AdP yet technically not...

Edit - spoke too soon

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 10-27-2012, 11:10 AM
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My theory. They are identical and any difference people notice is in their heads. Products are the same. Packaging and price are the only difference.

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 10-27-2012, 11:18 AM
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  • beartrap
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Doug, I don't mean to ruin your theory, I certainly don't want you to misunderstand again. We have very similar background, the only difference, I was also involved in cost analysis.
Here is how it works in the real world:
A company let's call them "BIG-BIG-MANUFACTURER", makes a bunch of products, let's call one of them "PdA". They sell 10,000 units a year to "BIG-STORES" and make $100,000 profit from those sales.
Now, let's find a "SMALL-COMPANY", they want to buy 100,000 units a year. They want to put their label on, let's say "YYY".
"BIG-BIG-MANUFACTURER" gets accountants to do the analysis, they come up with a profit of same $100,000 a year BUT it's $100,000 more than they would have made just by selling their label. So, they get their attorneys, the board, whatever to approve it and sign it.
Disclaimer: This is my "theory" and it's based on how it's actually done.

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 10-27-2012, 11:53 AM
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(10-27-2012, 10:51 AM)RazoRock_Joe Wrote: Doug,

Your theory is incorrect; but it was fun reading it.

Sadly Joe, the only assumption I can draw from this then would be that if XXX is exactly the same as AdP as is claimed, either you or AdP have either allowed an incorrect label on one of the products or either you or AdP have intentionally placed an incorrect label on the respective products as the ingredient lists between XXX and AdP are not the same.

Sadly I do not think a major cosmetics company would take that risk.

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 10-27-2012, 11:56 AM
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(10-27-2012, 11:18 AM)beartrap Wrote: Doug, I don't mean to ruin your theory, I certainly don't want you to misunderstand again. We have very similar background, the only difference, I was also involved in cost analysis.
Here is how it works in the real world:
A company let's call them "BIG-BIG-MANUFACTURER", makes a bunch of products, let's call one of them "PdA". They sell 10,000 units a year to "BIG-STORES" and make $100,000 profit from those sales.
Now, let's find a "SMALL-COMPANY", they want to buy 100,000 units a year. They want to put their label on, let's say "YYY".
"BIG-BIG-MANUFACTURER" gets accountants to do the analysis, they come up with a profit of same $100,000 a year BUT it's $100,000 more than they would have made just by selling their label. So, they get their attorneys, the board, whatever to approve it and sign it.
Disclaimer: This is my "theory" and it's based on how it's actually done.

Only wrench in the theory is... most big companies like PdA use third party manufacturing.

If you are selling 100,000 units a year, it's not worth buying, running and maintaining your own factory production facilities.

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 10-27-2012, 11:59 AM
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It just sounds like Joe is buying a slightly different formulation from the factory that actually makes AdP.

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 10-27-2012, 12:02 PM
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  • beartrap
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(10-27-2012, 11:56 AM)RazoRock_Joe Wrote: most big companies like PdA use third party manufacturing

This ^

and the company I am talking about, did exactly that.

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 10-27-2012, 12:14 PM
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(10-27-2012, 11:18 AM)beartrap Wrote: Doug, I don't mean to ruin your theory, I certainly don't want you to misunderstand again. We have very similar background, the only difference, I was also involved in cost analysis.
Here is how it works in the real world:
A company let's call them "BIG-BIG-MANUFACTURER", makes a bunch of products, let's call one of them "PdA". They sell 10,000 units a year to "BIG-STORES" and make $100,000 profit from those sales.
Now, let's find a "SMALL-COMPANY", they want to buy 100,000 units a year. They want to put their label on, let's say "YYY".
"BIG-BIG-MANUFACTURER" gets accountants to do the analysis, they come up with a profit of same $100,000 a year BUT it's $100,000 more than they would have made just by selling their label. So, they get their attorneys, the board, whatever to approve it and sign it.
Disclaimer: This is my "theory" and it's based on how it's actually done.

My "theory" is also based upon how it is done in the real world. Kraft does not make a single one of their frozen dinners / pizzas in their own factories. They are all farmed out to 3rd party manufacturers. If you like I can find the Crain's Chicago Business article from a few years
ago highlighting a former employer of mine and the entire process.

If PdA from your example wishes to spend a couple million dollars to build a production line to churn out 10,000 jars of cream a year (or however many they actually sell) that is their business. It is one way to do it, but it is not the most cost effective.

I will go back to Phil's original post then. If they are exactly the same, the iningredient list should match. There are actual laws which state what must be listed and in what order.

What you are basically saying is that AdP made XXX for Joe and the label is intentionally incorrect and in violation of several laws and regulations already referenced in the other thread.

What I personally do not appreciate is the fact you have basically called my statement of fact about my job and working with FDA regulations and manufacturing a lie. Hence your saying that your statement is how it works in the "real world". Your words. My statements are also how it works in the real world. Surprisingly there is more than one manufacturing business model.

(10-27-2012, 11:59 AM)asharperrazor Wrote: It just sounds like Joe is buying a slightly different formulation from the factory that actually makes AdP.

Well, that is what I have said, but several people are saying they are EXACTLY the same. Slightly different formula would explain the different labels and would mean that no labeling laws have been violated.

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 10-27-2012, 12:20 PM
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Most private label shave soaps and creams are contracted. Phil is using the same process to make a clone of AdP. It may or may not be the same contractor as AdP uses. They are not the same formula. Why AdP costs more? That are a boutique brand and will not commoditized their name and sell a $10.00 product. No grand conspiracies.

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 10-27-2012, 12:34 PM
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(10-27-2012, 11:59 AM)asharperrazor Wrote: It just sounds like Joe is buying a slightly different formulation from the factory that actually makes AdP.

Good luck in finding a production facility that is willing to change a formula and run 5,000 units.

Most of the good factories I know won't even pick up the phone if you aren't willing to run 25,000 units.

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 10-27-2012, 12:36 PM
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(10-27-2012, 12:34 PM)RazoRock_Joe Wrote:
(10-27-2012, 11:59 AM)asharperrazor Wrote: It just sounds like Joe is buying a slightly different formulation from the factory that actually makes AdP.

Good luck in finding a production facility that is willing to change a formula and run 5,000 units.

Most of the good factories I know won't even pick up the phone if you aren't willing to run 25,000 units.

Can you explain the different ingredient list? It really is confusing.

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 10-27-2012, 12:41 PM
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  • beartrap
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(10-27-2012, 12:14 PM)wingdo Wrote: What I personally do not appreciate is the fact you have basically called my statement of fact about my job and working with FDA regulations and manufacturing a lie. Hence your saying that your statement is how it works in the "real world". Your words. My statements are also how it works in the real world. Surprisingly there is more than one manufacturing business model.

You are too sensitive Doug, don't take my words out of contexts. Sometimes one has to accept that his logic is not how things run.
You feel hurt? I apologize. This is your theory and I will leave this thread.

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 10-27-2012, 12:44 PM
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(10-27-2012, 12:36 PM)asharperrazor Wrote:
(10-27-2012, 12:34 PM)RazoRock_Joe Wrote:
(10-27-2012, 11:59 AM)asharperrazor Wrote: It just sounds like Joe is buying a slightly different formulation from the factory that actually makes AdP.

Good luck in finding a production facility that is willing to change a formula and run 5,000 units.

Most of the good factories I know won't even pick up the phone if you aren't willing to run 25,000 units.

Can you explain the different ingredient list? It really is confusing.

Only thing I can comment on is my ingredient list and it's 100% accurate, as per the company that made the product.

I will say this...

sometimes a manufacturing company will tweak a formula, for various reasons (ie. time of year product is produced), and not tell the buyer.

If you think ingredient labels are 100% accurate all the time, you are mistaken. I've read reports with evidence that 70% of all ingredient labels are incorrect in some form or another.

It would almost be impossible to prove and check because soap especially, changes and cures over time, as it ages. Certain ingredients like essential oils, used in small quantity can get "eaten" by the soap over time. Make a soap is chemical reaction.

Some of you guys are really over thinking this.

As an example, in some European countries, you can put "Perfume" to list the scent... when there might be 10 different ingredients that make up the that perfume.

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 10-27-2012, 12:52 PM
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  • Teiste
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Joseph , so basically you are saying that they're the same.

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 10-27-2012, 12:54 PM
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(10-27-2012, 12:52 PM)Teiste Wrote: Joseph , so basically you are saying that they're the same.

a picture is worth a thousand wordsBiggrin

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